Re: Blue passports? They say we could have had them all along...

Hi

WW2 was seventy years ago, ancient history to many.

Times have changed and so have the Politicians.

The world focus is moving East, China, India, Korea, the growing economies.

We will never be able to compete with them on manufacturing costs, we must transform ourselves into a high tech, highly skilled economy.

Re: Blue passports? They say we could have had them all along...

Odd that as soon as break up of eu is mooted they cry it's only thing stopped France and Germany fighting then. They can't have it both ways.

As for high skilled etc fine great but we still need a cord who will clean cook and empty the bins etc. And we need to pay them enough to live in this high skill society.

Re: Blue passports? They say we could have had them all along...

If our leaving the EU triggers it's demise then the Brexiters will be guilty of destroying something that could have brought prosperity, security and hope to the West just to pursue their own xenophobic, insular and selfish ends.

Those of us who believe in ideals will fight, not whinge, against the revolting attitudes of the Brexiters and seek to undo the harm they have done by working towards a new, united Europe. While never letting the Brexiters forget that they are personally responsible for the destruction they have wreaked.

Re: Blue passports? They say we could have had them all along...

Even the old warmonger Churchill was a devotee of the idea of "United States of Europe".

Re: Blue passports? They say we could have had them all along...

Extracts of JFK's speech on European Unity in 1963 :

"The future of the West lies in Atlantic partnership--a system of cooperation, interdependence and harmony whose people can jointly meet their burdens and opportunities throughout the world. Some say this is only a dream, but I do not agree. A generation of achievement--the Marshall Plan, NATO, the Schuman Plan, and the Common Market--urges us up the path to greater unity.

There will be difficulties and delays, and doubts and discouragement. There will be differences of approach and opinion. But we have the will and the means to serve three related goals--the heritage of our countries, the unity of our continents, and the interdependence of the Western alliance."....

"Trade expansion will help us all. The experience of the Common Market--like the experience of the German Zollverein--shows an increased rise in business activity and general prosperity resulting for all participants in such trade agreements, with no member profiting at the expense of another. As they say on my own Cape Cod, "A rising tide lifts all boats." And a partnership, by definition, serves both partners, without domination or unfair advantage. Together we have been partners in adversity--let us also be partners in prosperity.

Beyond development and trade is monetary policy. Here again our interest run together. Indeed there is no field in which the wider interests of all more clearly outweigh the narrow interests of one. We have lived by that principle, as bankers to freedom, for a generation. Now that other nations--including West Germany--have found new economic strength, it is time for common efforts here, too. The great free nations of the world must take control of our monetary problems if these problems are not to take control of us.

And third and finally, our partnership depends on common political purpose. Against the hazards of division and lassitude, no lesser force will serve. History tells us that disunity and relaxation are the great internal dangers of an alliance. Thucydides reported that the Peloponnesians and their allies were mighty in battle but handicapped by their policy-making body--in which, he related, "each presses its own end... which generally results in no action at all... they devote more time to the prosecution of their own purposes than to consideration of the general welfare--each supposes that no harm will come of his own neglect, that it is the business of another to do this and that--and so, as each separately entertains the same illusion, the common cause imperceptibly decays."

Is this also to be the story of the grand alliance? Welded in a moment of imminent danger, will it disintegrate into complacency with each member pressing its own ends to the neglect of the common cause? This must not be the case. Our old dangers are not gone beyond return, and any division among us would bring them back in doubled strength."

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=9303

Re: Blue passports? They say we could have had them all along...

We can be partners and friends that doesn't mean we should be ruled by unelected elite surely.

Look around the world many if not all countries want independence and to rule their own back yard. Take their independence away is what causes dissension IMO even within countries their are parts want independence, right across the world. They want to be friends with their neighbours they don't want to be ruled by them.

It's remainers seem hell bent on making us leave Europe all leavers want is to leave the eu and stay friends with our European neighbours.

They didn't want us to join made our politicians beg for it, spoke as if we were dirt on their shoes to Heath etc, now they are treating us worse because we want to leave. Seems clear to me we are disliked and while that's unfair we are too proud to beg them to like us. I hope.

Re: Blue passports? They say we could have had them all along...

So we should stay in and change it so that they are elected!
What about the house of lords? ( Although I do think they always talk the most sense when the governments have stupid plans..) We would have been better off trying to reform the EU rather than going off in a huff and still having to trade with them but without any rights to influence affairs.

That isn't how the world works though is it? In reality most countries are interdependent on others for finance, trade, power, defence etc. With that comes politics and power in a different form. We are no different. We import power, goods, components, food, minerals, metals etc etc. With that comes the need for co-operation. We had a great deal of independence in the EU, we had special exemptions and as one of the big three we should have been hugely influential in the way things are headed. But what happened?



I don't understand this comment.

Many pro-leavers talk of Europe with a great deal of bile. Mainly about the French....


You're talking about the French too. It seems we are really leaving because the French don't like us & vice-versa. It's always been the case that we argue with them in the EU.

Re: Blue passports? They say we could have had them all along...

Hi

The EU is not breaking up, it will change as a result of Brexit, but it will not dissolve.

What happens to it is now basically nothing to do with us , we have chosen to leave and tread our own path.

We are now a competitor in terms of trade, we are on our own soon, we will forge new alliances and deals, without having to be part of a Federal System.

Re: Blue passports? They say we could have had them all along...

In a nutshell we are in the more.

Re: Blue passports? They say we could have had them all along...

Well said, Julia.

First Brexit - a proper Brexit, as voted for by the majority.

Then reform of the Lords, into an elected body of far fewer members.