14-11-2016, 01:59 PM
112
Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!
Originally Posted by Flicker
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I think you have mistaken what fundamental rights are.In the UK fundamental rights are expressed through Parliament and the law.
That many people don't know this is not reason to trash the British constitution. That indeed would be tyranny of the mob.
Judges and politicicans are bound to obey the law. That the large majority of the population does not know the law is no excuse to ignore it.
On a personal note I am amazed that you don't respect your own sovereignty after demanding it so vociferously. This is the way the UK works if the Supreme Court says so.
That the popularly motivated 4% of the British population voted for something can stamp their feet and shout "we want it and we want it now" BWWWAAA if we don't get it (even tho threatening a revolution) is not telling me the country is stable enough to make its own decisions thoughtfully. Thank goodness for the Parliamentary system that is in places...where mature reflection and 360° context from all places and opinions can control the country calmly.
Mob rule is a horror and the men who designed the system were very very wise.
There are miles to go yet. Are the people of the UK going to spend the next at least two years whining if they can't simply send a letter to Brussels and clear their desks?
If the Supreme Court decides the direct voice of the people overrides Parliament then the entire constitution and nearly 1000 years of govt in the UK is tossed out of the window.
No one is trying to thwart anything...the conspiracy implied in this just hysterical mob conspiracy.
However the very system of govt may trip you up. It may not...but it could. In any case leaving is not going to be without its delays. So I suggest you sit back calmly and watch the drama.
Parliament gave us the opportunity of a Referendum, the purest form of Democracy, one elector, one vote.
It is not up to Parliament to rescind that because they do not like the result.
It matters nothing if it was 4%, as you claim, or if it was 1 single vote.
We have voted to leave the EU in it's present form.
That is Democracy in action, something very dear to my heart.
Our Prime Minister has already stated that Parliament will be given a vote on the exact terms of exit.
If the EU reforms itself to revert to what it was originally, a simple Free Trade area without Tariffs, without any external interference by people I did not vote for and have no chance of voting for, then fine by me.
I would vote to join a simple Free Trade Area.
That is what Brexit is about, w are wanting to make Free Trade Areas across the World without the Political Interference from others.
I will not be voting to continue to be controlled by a Political Elite, specifically Merkel and Junckers, who consider that they have the Divine Right to impose their wishes on others.
I do not like Dictatorships, in any way, shape or form.
I do not like Megalomaniacs who consider that they know best and we should follow like sheep.
Democracy is very simple, we are all equal
14-11-2016, 02:14 PM
113
Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!
I think you said it all there Swimmy.When will those, who oppose the Brexit vote, understand what that vote was about. We all knew there would be some difficult financial times, but we were all prepared to accept that, in order to control our own country.
14-11-2016, 02:32 PM
114
Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!
Originally Posted by Flicker
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I think you have mistaken what fundamental rights are.
You persist in diverting the discourse away from these constitutional founding documents and diverting the discussion away from the plain fact that parliament NEVER EVER had the right to change those fundamental constitutional rights WITHOUT the consent of the populous. Such diversionary tactics are the bread and butter of Freemasons and associated societies so I strongly suspect you are part of that "establishment".
Originally Posted by Flicker
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In the UK fundamental rights are expressed through Parliament and the law.
We will continue to go around in circles, which I am sure helps your position here, until you face up to the fundamental issue that Ted Heath's parliament NEVER had the right (legally or morally) to change the British constitution without a referendum.
Do you accept that parliament can not legally change the constitution without consent of the populous? yes or no?
14-11-2016, 02:36 PM
115
Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!
Originally Posted by swimfeeders
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If the EU reforms itself to revert to what it was originally, a simple Free Trade area without Tariffs, without any external interference by people I did not vote for and have no chance of voting for, then fine by me.I would vote to join a simple Free Trade Area.
That is what Brexit is about, w are wanting to make Free Trade Areas across the World without the Political Interference from others.
As for whether the EU will evolve into what it used to be, I'm not so sure. When we leave, Merkel and her poodle Hollande will still have political control over the rest of Europe. If that situation still suits them, I cannot see any reason for them to change.
What will possibly happen next is some other countries following our lead. I suspect that one of two things will then happen. If only one or two countries leave the EU, the core countries could then continue as they are. If more countries follow suit, the wannabe dictators might give up and admit to returning to a non-political free trade organisation.
Interesting times ahead, but I'd just like things to move a little more quickly.
14-11-2016, 02:50 PM
117
Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!
Just quick afterthought...Julie wrote:
Tell that to those with nothing with less than they had 10 years ago. Tell that to people who have had benefits cut. Wages stagnated, while we watch the rich get richer.
The rich will continue to get richer. Unless you ban the stock exchange, insurance businesses and major corporations , there will be a global outreach to hire the best people...and pay their salaries at a higher rate than the other corporations will. Wealth will not be touched whatever relationship there is with the EU.
There will always be places on the planet where these people can put money, pay less tax and splash it around. Educate their children, introduce them to the right people and and get them future proofed.
And then there will always be those who can't do any of the above.
Leaving the EU is in no way going to change that. Those who move money around will stay away from the UK. Money men will still take advantage of the money markets, making profits on the losses of countries. They know how to buy low and sell high and to know exactly when that happens.
Those who can't or don't move in such circles are trapped in an austerity economy already predicted to go past 2040. That means fewer benefits, lower govt spending plus higher prices unless the value of the pound goes up.
The hopes that those not in the "establishment" will benefit I fear are vain hopes. The good times when there was a bit left over in the govt pot for a few nice extras are over . BTW the triple lock on pensions is already under scrutiny for revision after 2020...just three years away.
There may be promises, Mrs. May's blue sky speeches and the odd Christmas present...but it will be the young who will pick up the pieces and pay off the debts.
14-11-2016, 03:02 PM
118
Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!
Originally Posted by Flicker
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Just quick afterthought...Julie wrote:
Tell that to those with nothing with less than they had 10 years ago. Tell that to people who have had benefits cut. Wages stagnated, while we watch the rich get richer.
The rich will continue to get richer. Unless you ban the stock exchange, insurance businesses and major corporations , there will be a global outreach to hire the best people...and pay their salaries at a higher rate than the other corporations will. Wealth will not be touched whatever relationship there is with the EU.
There will always be places on the planet where these people can put money, pay less tax and splash it around. Educate their children, introduce them to the right people and and get them future proofed.
And then there will always be those who can't do any of the above.
Leaving the EU is in no way going to change that. Those who move money around will stay away from the UK. Money men will still take advantage of the money markets, making profits on the losses of countries. They know how to buy low and sell high and to know exactly when that happens.
Those who can't or don't move in such circles are trapped in an austerity economy already predicted to go past 2040. That means fewer benefits, lower govt spending plus higher prices unless the value of the pound goes up.
The hopes that those not in the "establishment" will benefit I fear are vain hopes. The good times when there was a bit left over in the govt pot for a few nice extras are over . BTW the triple lock on pensions is already under scrutiny for revision after 2020...just three years away.
There may be promises, Mrs. May's blue sky speeches and the odd Christmas present...but it will be the young who will pick up the pieces and pay off the debts.
14-11-2016, 03:03 PM
119
Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!
Originally Posted by JBR
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As I've said before, if and when the matter is voted on in Parliament, MPs will first examine their constituents' opinions about Brexit. If the majority of their constituents voted in favour of Brexit, and they vote against it in Parliament, they'll have no excuse for their disappointment that will follow in the next general election.MPs know on which side their bread is buttered and their own well being will always come first before anything else: their constituents, their party, their country. That's what MPs are like.
Well there are happily some MP's who are genuinely concerned about "doing it right".
However what you say is right IF the vote was evenly spread across constituencies.
The "UKIP problem"proves it isn't. 4 million votes and no seat in Parliament
If all the Leavers lived in 20 constituencies then there are 600 MP's who represent Remain constituencies.
I know that is not the case but I was using an example.
My point is not that the country won't leave but that it is not as simplistic as to say"we voted so it will happen as soon as possible. There are years of process, judgements, decisions, negotiations and set backs to go through. You may disregard it but that is reality. It usually takes that long to negotiate a trade deal!
Philip Hammond has predicted ten years before it is all finished. That is past a General Election and Russia could have invaded Bulgaria by then.
That is a very long time to whinge whenever something doesn't slide through as you would ideally want.
14-11-2016, 03:04 PM
120
Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!
Originally Posted by Julie1962
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Tell that to those with nothing with less than they had 10 years ago. Tell that to people who have had benefits cut. Wages stagnated, while we watch the rich get richer.
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