Re: 11 +

It's not just a matter of social structure.
Many kids do badly in Primary years for all sorts of reasons.
My son would have failed an 11+ exam.
(missed months of school due to health)
But he's just finished his VCE..Physics, English, Chem, Global politics, Maths Methods (fail) and an Engineering subject. He's not going to get the marks to get into an Engineering degree...but he'll have enough to get into a Diploma, brush up on Maths methods and transfer to a Bachelor of Engineering second year.

I would probably have failed the 11+, (hopeless at maths, terrible spelling ) been sent to a crappy secondary college and become a shop assistant or something.
Passed VCE and entered Uni in Oz though.

My Sister passed 11+ the Grammar Schools uniform requirements nearly caused a divorce.

It's a bad system

Re: 11 +

Good God, woman. That would give them a maximum of ONE YEAR of specialist education until the age at which compulsory education ceases.

The basics and the core curricula should have been taught effectively long before age 15. The fact that they are so often not is quite a different problem. My wife, for example, deplores the lack of basic spelling and arithmetic in many of her new university entrants, but that's a failing of our education system in general and one which I have moaned about on here several times before.

In my experience, a child's strengths and weaknesses are usually quite apparent by age 11 regardless of whether the child has 'made their mind up' yet.

Moreover, the core curricula continue to the end of secondary education regardless of which type of school, or at least they did when I went to grammar school.

Re: 11 +

I failed the 11+.

Wasn't till I was 30 odd that I was told I was a failed sad bag.

Left school at 15 a few years later started my own heating firm.

Theses days we have to import Polish Plumbers. as there are no apprentships on offer which the Secondry Moderns concentrated on.

So these days if you don't go to uni you have failed at 18.

Re: 11 +

I hear what your saying galty , but then again everyone goes to uni these days .... kids leave Skool unable to read /write or do basic arithmetic yet go to uni and get an ology to prove they iz klever .
My theory then as is now , tony Bliar wanted all kids to be kleverand go 2 uni simply bcuz they had no jobs innit was just a huge baby sitting service to keep the figures looking good instead of mass unemployment under labour .
As for apprenticeships yes we're sadly lacking but it was just as much the unions who killed them by demanding full proper wages for apprentices at the time so company's obviously thought if paying full rate then il hire a qualified .experienced worker instead ( since then the big manpower dependent industries have moved abroad such as ship building ETC )

Re: 11 +

The answer to that problem is to create both grammar schools and technical schools/colleges. Those suited to an academic career go to the first; those suited to a technical career go to the second. Simple.

If there is sufficient interest for plumbing and other such trades, the technical schools would provide a good grounding, and hopefully interest, in trades so that we won't need any more Polish tradesmen. Having said that, I believe that some of them are very good!

Re: 11 +

There should be a class for the folks who carry on regardless.

Re: 11 +

One year?
Year 9 14-15..standard curriculum (English, Maths, history,global studies, art, science)

year 10 (15-16) English, Maths, History, Global Studies, Science..choice of two specialist electives..Domestic science, Woodwork, metalwork, commerce, computer science,Language( japanese, french,Indonesian Mandarin etc)

year 11 (16-17) English or English Lit (compulsory)
Choice of 4-5 specialist subjects Chemistry, Physics, Pure Maths, Maths Methods (applied maths) Global Politics, Computer science....plus about 30 others

Year 12..continue year 11 chosen subjects.

Where do you get one year from?

Our kids start school at 5 but still do a minimum of 10 years,75% (with regional variations) do 12 years.

You seriously think Kids know what they want to do by the time they are 11?
If you ask most kids to name 10 occupations when they are 11 they's struggle..and name at least half of those 10 the occupations that their Mothers, Fathers and social peers do.

Hey Tess, what do you want to be when you grow up?

Tess from the estate

"An airdresser or a travel agent. Mum works at Marks and Spencer..I think that would be boring.

Hey Monica, what do you want to be when you grow up?.

Monica from the nice part of town

"A doctor, a lawyer..a vet would be good,,I like animals..my Aunty Kate works for a Wine agent and spends a lot of time in France...ooo I'd like to learn french."

Sure it's a stereotype, but how does a kid know they want to be a Systems Architect or a Marine Biologist or a Robotics engineer if they've never heard of it?

Re: 11 +

This is rubbish and makes me very angry..

if a child is really poor at english, written and spoken..but a wizz at maths...at 11 years of age? !!what do you do?
stream them into a trade school?

There's some excellent careers available through a technical college..as we call them...but you still need some scores VCE or GCSE to get there.
And they are not for everyone.
Same as University is not for everyone.
Equal but different. and should get Equal respect and funding.


Your scenario is just the same old.."keep em in their class so MY kids have less competition"
I though the class system was dying in the UK?

Re: 11 +

Yes, one year, based on your statement:

"a child can make his or her own decision once past the basics at 15 or 16"

In Britain, compulsory education finishes at age 16!

In my opinion, the basics finish at age 11. 7 or 8 years should be more than adequate to teach the basics of English and mathematics.

After age 11 these two subjects would continue at a more advanced level, along with a choice of scientific or arts-based subjects at grammar school or alternatively technical, engineering and similar subjects.

By age 11 a child's teachers and (assuming they are interested) parents should have a pretty good idea of where a child's strengths lie. Many children of that age also have their own ideas of their favourite subjects in school.

Re: 11 +

Such accusations make me very angry too. I, like my parents (who were poor people), am working class yet went to a grammar school. Grammar schools were not provided only for middle and upper classes; on the contrary, they made provision for lower/working class children who had the academic ability to benefit from their teaching. In my class was the son of a 'rag and bone' man who, because he passed the 11+ was offered a place in a school which cost his parents nothing.

State grammar schools were classless.