15-04-2017, 04:56 AM
11
Re: The EU and Russia.
Originally Posted by swimfeeders
->
Hi If you had bothered to read my posts on a number of threads you would know that not only do I have the highest regard for our Intelligence Services, I also constant praise them. Who benefits greatly from sanctions against Russia? OPEC. What has Boris to do with it? Well Boris will tell bare faced lies to advance his own career. Perhaps you should do a little bit of research?
My point as stated is that politicians will usually take the advice of our intelligence, at least the government as a whole will. Yes some individuals may twist it to their ends, but the lack of trust in Russia by our government has been ongoing for years and BJ has only been in post for five seconds (and will hopefully be gone in five more!). I am no fan of his and was perplexed in the decision to appoint him to his current role. Our press has been negative about Russia for decades.
The former eastern bloc countries in your OP were desperate to join the EU & NATO to gain security from Russia. Where do they stand in this debate? Are they of no consequence?
Poland, the largest and our staunch ally in WWII has always been particularly anxious about security from Russia. I am sure you know the historical reasons, one particularly shocking example being the Katyn massacre of 22,000 Polish officers by the Soviet Union's NKVD during WWII (officially blamed on the Nazis until the 90's). I am sure your Polish friends have mentioned how let down they were by Churchill at Yalta. While Russia distanced itself from this as a Soviet atrocity, Stalin is regaining status recently.
Ukraine is a recognised nation. "The Ukraine" is the old province of the Soviet Union. Patriotic Ukrainian nationals loathe that term. Many ordinary Russians do not recognise the independent status of Ukraine and the former Baltic States. They all have large ethnic Russian populations because of the history. Strategy is no reason to annex territory if you respect international rules.
Tit-for-tat bickering about extraditions and spying have been going on for years. Litvinenko and Berezovsky being the high profile cases. Russian military planes have been making incursions into our airspace for years and the espionage (both ways) has never stopped.
Until our intelligence services and RAF say it's ok to trust the country I will have faith in our Government's stance. Except for brief moments, it's been unchanged for over 100 years. If our Government start to publicly criticise the intelligence services as has been the case in the US I will start to question their views on this subject. I believe we have one of the best (if not the best) intelligence services in the world. Sometimes they get it wrong, but on the whole they do a sterling job.
15-04-2017, 09:18 AM
12
Re: The EU and Russia.
Originally Posted by swimfeeders
->
HiThere have been a number of posts by a member warning the UK that the EU is defending the UK against Russia.
Although peripherally related to Brexit, these matters have been going on for some years before the Referendum and as such I have decided that, to my mind at least, this subject is worthy of discussion as a separate issue.
Mods, feel free to move this thread as you see fit.
I have a different view of the matter to some others.
After the break up of the former USSR, there was a great opportunity to mend fences and remove the threat of Nuclear War in Europe.
This worked for a while, massive disarmament, a substantial reduction in the huge arsenals of Nukes etc held by both sides.
Some in the EU desperately wanted a much enlarged EU and so moved rapidly eastwards towards the Russian Border.
Russia had lost 26 million people in WW2, it is stuck in their memory, it was not going to happen again.
The Eastern European Countries, the former USSR, where a useful buffer zone, it gave them a sense of security.
The EU went all out for a land grab, bribing these Countries with massive investments in new transport links, both road and rail.
The USSR had previously deliberately kept away from doing this.
It now meant the military were hours, not days, away from the Russian Border.
Russia started to get worried, and understandably so.
The straw that broke the camel's back was the Ukraine.
Merkel and Juncker were determined to get it into the EU.
They were also determined to have an EU Army.
The Russians have a deep rooted fear of Germany, after Leningrad and Stalingrad and the mass slaughter of Russian Nationals, who can blame them?
It was time for a realisation of the situation and for the EU to back off.
Did they do it?
No, instead went hell for leather.
A large part of the Ukraine is ethnic Russian and the Crimea is a vital strategic base for them.
Stop prodding them and in particular stop this mindset, held in particular by one, of how much of a danger Russia is to the UK.
I am not the only one who thinks like this.
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order...top-expanding/
For NATO, read the EU.
If Merkel and Juncker want to get in a fight, good luck to them.
We should keep well out of it.
No country becomes part of the EU without asking...usually over a long period of time.
The ex Communist countries were delighted to join the EU.
However your first sentence is not what I have written. Please stop misquoting me.
I SAID that Russia's view of the west is that the best way to overcome it...change the balance of power...is to break it up. Have one faction/nation opposed to the other. Break up NATO and the EU and trans western relationships. NOT "that the EU is defending the UK against Russia."
The salivating desire that the EU break up is exactly what Russia wants. To want it too is to support Russia which is in fact wanting something that will do you great harm as a liberal democracy. IOW it is treasonous.
Brexit is a triumph for Russia. Trump is a triumph for Russia because it thought Trump would leave Syria an Assad alone...now trump has done a U turn, Russia isn't too sure that supporting him was a good idea. But they can live with it. LePen is paid for by Russia and wants to break up the EU...are you starting to get the picture??
15-04-2017, 09:22 AM
13
Re: The EU and Russia.
Originally Posted by JBR
->
Don't you think that our relationship with Russia is improving?It better had, anyway, because we are reliant on them for much of our resources, such as gas for example.
As I've said elsewhere, Russia is not our natural enemy and, as has been said elsewhere, they were our much needed allies in the Second World War.
It would serve us well to develop a greater friendship with them.
And to get rid of Boris the Buffoon!
So what??? That was 75 years and generations ago!!
Does your understanding of politics stop in 1945?
Wait...don't answer that. You are a supporter of Brexit.
15-04-2017, 09:26 AM
14
Re: The EU and Russia.
Originally Posted by AnnieS
->
Good to know you also have high regard for our intelligence services. On that we agree. But it's unreasonable to expect me to have read all your posts on the subject. It's of course up to you if you wish to be discourteous in the start of every reply to me. I don't think I've been discourteous to you. If I have please point out where. My point as stated is that politicians will usually take the advice of our intelligence, at least the government as a whole will. Yes some individuals may twist it to their ends, but the lack of trust in Russia by our government has been ongoing for years and BJ has only been in post for five seconds (and will hopefully be gone in five more!). I am no fan of his and was perplexed in the decision to appoint him to his current role. Our press has been negative about Russia for decades.
The former eastern bloc countries in your OP were desperate to join the EU & NATO to gain security from Russia. Where do they stand in this debate? Are they of no consequence?
Poland, the largest and our staunch ally in WWII has always been particularly anxious about security from Russia. I am sure you know the historical reasons, one particularly shocking example being the Katyn massacre of 22,000 Polish officers by the Soviet Union's NKVD during WWII (officially blamed on the Nazis until the 90's). I am sure your Polish friends have mentioned how let down they were by Churchill at Yalta. While Russia distanced itself from this as a Soviet atrocity, Stalin is regaining status recently.
Ukraine is a recognised nation. "The Ukraine" is the old province of the Soviet Union. Patriotic Ukrainian nationals loathe that term. Many ordinary Russians do not recognise the independent status of Ukraine and the former Baltic States. They all have large ethnic Russian populations because of the history. Strategy is no reason to annex territory if you respect international rules.
Tit-for-tat bickering about extraditions and spying have been going on for years. Litvinenko and Berezovsky being the high profile cases. Russian military planes have been making incursions into our airspace for years and the espionage (both ways) has never stopped.
Until our intelligence services and RAF say it's ok to trust the country I will have faith in our Government's stance. Except for brief moments, it's been unchanged for over 100 years. If our Government start to publicly criticise the intelligence services as has been the case in the US I will start to question their views on this subject. I believe we have one of the best (if not the best) intelligence services in the world. Sometimes they get it wrong, but on the whole they do a sterling job.
Even Trump seems to realise that befriending Russia is a mug's game. Putin etc. won't go fro overt attack...they prefer the drip feed of driving small wedges between western alliances.
15-04-2017, 10:44 AM
15
Re: The EU and Russia.
Sorry flicker but your grasp of world affairs, politically and militarily, isn't actually that astute.I've doubted it, even if you haven't ... since you suggested your solution to the Syrian war ... with or without Russian involvement.
1) Totally empty Syria of all Syrians, who will be airlifted to Europe (over 20 million of them).
2) Who will be given refugee status and kept in board and lodging throughout the EU whilst NATO go in and bomb the crap out of Syria until the war is ended. A major cleansing. No Assad left, no regime troops, no ISIS or other extremists left standing. Maybe just the odd camel. and an old Russian plane destined for a new museum or exhibit in a Centre of Cultural Excellence.
3) All the 20 million odd refugees are then ferried back to the dead, destroyed warzone, en masse, funded financially by the charitable world (mainly the EU) who will pay for the massive rebuilding projects, thus providing all the newly returned refugees with jobs for life.
4) And everyone lived happily ever after.
15-04-2017, 11:27 AM
16
Re: The EU and Russia.
Originally Posted by Morticia
->
Sorry flicker but your grasp of world affairs, politically and militarily, isn't actually that astute. I've doubted it, even if you haven't ... since you suggested your solution to the Syrian war ... with or without Russian involvement.
1) Totally empty Syria of all Syrians, who will be airlifted to Europe (over 20 million of them).
2) Who will be given refugee status and kept in board and lodging throughout the EU whilst NATO go in and bomb the crap out of Syria until the war is ended. A major cleansing. No Assad left, no regime troops, no ISIS or other extremists left standing. Maybe just the odd camel. and an old Russian plane destined for a new museum or exhibit in a Centre of Cultural Excellence.
3) All the 20 million odd refugees are then ferried back to the dead, destroyed warzone, en masse, funded financially by the charitable world (mainly the EU) who will pay for the massive rebuilding projects, thus providing all the newly returned refugees with jobs for life.
4) And everyone lived happily ever after.
Wonderful!
Better than a magic wand.
15-04-2017, 12:54 PM
19
Re: The EU and Russia.
I suppose you also believe me if I tell you that Theresa May is going to eradicate poverty and low wages in one feel swoop.
Oh wait...you believed that too...
15-04-2017, 01:34 PM
20
Re: The EU and Russia.
Originally Posted by Morticia
->
Sorry flicker but your grasp of world affairs, politically and militarily, isn't actually that astute. I've doubted it, even if you haven't ... since you suggested your solution to the Syrian war ... with or without Russian involvement.
1) Totally empty Syria of all Syrians, who will be airlifted to Europe (over 20 million of them).
2) Who will be given refugee status and kept in board and lodging throughout the EU whilst NATO go in and bomb the crap out of Syria until the war is ended. A major cleansing. No Assad left, no regime troops, no ISIS or other extremists left standing. Maybe just the odd camel. and an old Russian plane destined for a new museum or exhibit in a Centre of Cultural Excellence.
3) All the 20 million odd refugees are then ferried back to the dead, destroyed warzone, en masse, funded financially by the charitable world (mainly the EU) who will pay for the massive rebuilding projects, thus providing all the newly returned refugees with jobs for life.
4) And everyone lived happily ever after.
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