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30-08-2017, 11:39 PM
1

Voluntary Euthanasia

This topic could go in Health/Discussions/Pets or General, so if Meg & Mags want to move it, please feel free.

It is about choosing when we die.

Strange as it may seem, the article I have just read is written by a Homeopathic Vet, but is about humans too.

It is too long to write the whole article here, so will stick to what I consider the most important parts.
Let me explain.

He had been talking about his own future demise, and saying he only wants to live to a ripe old age if he has his faculties and is still reasonably fit and well. Fair enough. I imagine most of us would feel much the same.

Then he says about our approach to our animals and asks if we let them suffer the indignities and suffering of old age.
He said if he, as a vet, were to allow a patient to suffer, and/or to be in pain, and refused to carry out euthanasia if the suffering was overwhelming and the pain immeasurable, he would quite rightly be struck off the veterinary register.

I agree.

But he then says yet if humans suffer pain that could not be controlled, or were diagnosed with a terminal condition that would undoubtedly lead to such suffering - like motor neurone disease - we are not allowed to make official arrangements to end our own life and nobody would be allowed to help us do so if we decided to end it.
Any doctor who did help would be struck off the medical register for carrying out a humane action, that if he, as a vet, would be struck off for not carrying out.
He thinks the situation is ludicrous and although I know it is highly sensitive and debatable, I am inclined to agree with his point of view here.

So do you think we should be allowed to find a way of ending a miserable and painful end to our own life with or without help? Or should it remain illegal?

Do you think you should be the judge of your own fate or not?
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31-08-2017, 06:46 AM
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Re: Voluntary Euthanasia

I have long said that animals have the right to a more dignified death than most humans and I truely believe that.

As many of you know I live in the Netherlands where euthansia is possible. Now, contrary to popular belief this does not mean that we can pop granny off to the doctor when we are sick of her and ask him to give her a jab to send her on her way.


In fact it is a very well thought out and still controversial law.
I and my OH have documents written by a lawyer indicationg the stage or circumstances that we wish euthanisa to be administered,
It is not a guarantee that our wishes will be observed.. If a close family memeber object or if the doctors do not feel that all medical options have been explored it could be refused.


Even with a directive it is not infalliable.

One of the ladies I care for just lost her sister, she was reluctant to say anything at first but it turns out her sister killed herself.
She was an 83 yr old woman with a 10 yr history of parkinsons.
Recent operation to remove a tumour from overies has left her in some pain.
Then a fall resulted in two crushed vertabrae ,
Three weeks ago she developed a inflammation of the facial nerve resluting in hellish pain and some paralyisis of the face.

She then spoke to her doctor about euthanisa and he poo pood the idea saying she had a good few years to go,,,,,

For her that was the breaking point , she went home and after her husband went to bed she sat in her favourite chair and took an overdose of pain medication.
In doing this she was denied the right to say goodbye and couldnt even leave a note because the parkinsons had robbed her of the ability to hold a pen. But she saw no other way to stop her suffering.


Doctors argue that they cannot play God but to my mind everytime they intervene and prevent death they have done exactly that..
Therefore to me that argument holds no validity.

I feel that the denial of the inevitable is damaging society , we are beginning to have an expectation to be cured of everything and to live forever when this is just not possible. Talk of death is brushed under the carpet like a dirty word.

With careful lawmaking and only fully certified doctors being able to arrange the procedure I do not see the harm in allowing people to call time on their suffering and leaving this world in a dignified manner.

More information on the Dutch rules for euthansia can be found here. (English version)
https://www.government.nl/topics/eut...ion-on-request
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31-08-2017, 07:21 AM
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Re: Voluntary Euthanasia

Totally agree . I don't intend to become so very old and unable to care for myself , my friends all agree too . I never let my beautiful dogs suffer , it was heartbreaking but beautiful to have them fall asleep in their beds but wonderful to know their awful struggle was over . My faith is strong , I dont fear death , I see it as another experience and look forward to seeing my mum and family again .

I think if the medical profession allowed 3 assessments by doctors who could speak personally to the patient asking if they were sure they wanted to die , then allow the patient to take the drug themself's or be given by the doctor .
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31-08-2017, 07:57 AM
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Re: Voluntary Euthanasia

This is a very difficult subject and, in the past I would have agreed that voluntary euthanasia is a good idea....but listen to my story!

About 10 years ago, somebody I know was seriously ill with yet another case of pneumonia and had given DNR instructions. He also had some psychological problems from severe sexual abuse as a child.

His doctors thought he still had a chance to survive, so his brother and wife took action to permit resuscitation... and he survived, but wasn't happy with his brother.

He had to move to a warm dry climate, but he could afford it so went to Australia and became my pen pal. I persuaded him to seek Psychological help and one of his friends, in Australia, told him of new medical ideas on how to deal with his breathing problems.

Both treatments meant he had to get staff to run his business for him and devote a lot of time to getting better. He decided to do this and his last letter to me said " Thanks for giving me the chance of a good life..... I am going to take your advice!". That was 8 years ago!

There is a lot more to this story, that I cannot disclose, but I just wanted to tell you that, where continuing life is possible, the patient isn't always right!
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31-08-2017, 09:16 AM
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Re: Voluntary Euthanasia

Originally Posted by susan m ->
Totally agree . I don't intend to become so very old and unable to care for myself , my friends all agree too . I never let my beautiful dogs suffer , it was heartbreaking but beautiful to have them fall asleep in their beds but wonderful to know their awful struggle was over . My faith is strong , I dont fear death , I see it as another experience and look forward to seeing my mum and family again .

I think if the medical profession allowed 3 assessments by doctors who could speak personally to the patient asking if they were sure they wanted to die , then allow the patient to take the drug themself's or be given by the doctor .


That's how I'd like to go susan, comfortable in my own bed, in the arms of someone who loved me.

Much preferred to it happening in a hospital bed somewhere, full of wires and tubes, and where I didn't know a soul.


Twink, I agree it is a very difficult one, and each case needs to be summed up differently.
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31-08-2017, 09:17 AM
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Re: Voluntary Euthanasia

And then twink there is a lady locally 78 years old severe dementia, has had three heart attacks and has been brought back each time because her husband and daughter won't let her go. Having dementia they don't listen to her.

There are stories support both sides.

Myself I want the choice and I want to be able to ask for help because if I am not allowed to I will have to go before I'm really ready just to be sure I can do it myself.
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31-08-2017, 09:27 AM
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Re: Voluntary Euthanasia

Yes i want the choice, but as we dont have it i will have to take matters into my own hands.
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31-08-2017, 10:33 AM
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Re: Voluntary Euthanasia

Originally Posted by Mups ->
[B]

Twink, I agree it is a very difficult one, and each case needs to be summed up differently.
Nobody wants to die, it is just the fear of living with the traumas of their illness that makes them decide to. The pain or other problems make them depressed, so if they can't see a way to stop it, death seems to be the best option.
I have great sympathy for them, but I feel that some psychological help should be offered before their wish is granted.
My friend had assets that could be sold for millions, so he was able to pay for private care, but he never would until I persuaded him that life would look better if he sorted his psychological problems.
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31-08-2017, 02:10 PM
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Re: Voluntary Euthanasia

Originally Posted by Twink55 ->
Nobody wants to die, it is just the fear of living with the traumas of their illness that makes them decide to. The pain or other problems make them depressed, so if they can't see a way to stop it, death seems to be the best option.
I have great sympathy for them, but I feel that some psychological help should be offered before their wish is granted.
My friend had assets that could be sold for millions, so he was able to pay for private care, but he never would until I persuaded him that life would look better if he sorted his psychological problems.

True ...no body wants to die, but if there is no solution to pain or disabilty and the inevitable outcome is death why not be allowed to chose when that is?

Yes.. counselling is important and here nobody who is suffering depression that can be resolved would be granted euthansia, but what about those who cannot be helped?
What about those who are depressed because the road of pain and suffering has been a long one and has nothing at the end but death because they have a terminal illness ? Are you suggesting we deny them the relief and dignity of dying peacefully when they desire it?


Then there is the point...If euthansia was legal nobody would be forced to sign up , but at the moment we are all forced to either carry on suffering or take the drastic step of suicide which for many families still carries a terrible stigma of guilt and shame.

Why not allow those who wish it the option and those who dont to carry on...
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31-08-2017, 02:31 PM
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Re: Voluntary Euthanasia

Originally Posted by Cass ->
True ...no body wants to die, but if there is no solution to pain or disabilty and the inevitable outcome is death why not be allowed to chose when that is?

Yes.. counselling is important and here nobody who is suffering depression that can be resolved would be granted euthansia, but what about those who cannot be helped?
What about those who are depressed because the road of pain and suffering has been a long one and has nothing at the end but death because they have a terminal illness ? Are you suggesting we deny them the relief and dignity of dying peacefully when they desire it?


Then there is the point...If euthansia was legal nobody would be forced to sign up , but at the moment we are all forced to either carry on suffering or take the drastic step of suicide which for many families still carries a terrible stigma of guilt and shame.

Why not allow those who wish it the option and those who dont to carry on...
I was never suggesting that they should be refused the option, but just the need to deal with all the other possibilities first. My friend would have been dead now if his DNR request had been carried out...... but he needed help to reconsider his request.
 
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