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10-01-2018, 10:30 AM
11

Re: Thailand , India and Asia

Originally Posted by Puddle Duck ->
Susan m, I hope you really enjoy your holiday.. it surely will be a holiday of a lifetime.

@Longdogs . Did you go to Pinnawala Sanctuary ?

There are accounts that the elephants bathing in the river there, are chained to the bottom. Some of them into lying down position. It's not an elephant orphan sanctuary, it's just a money making project under a different name.
The swaying they do is psychosis brought on by stress, lack of space and unnatural conditions.

@Surfermom, thanks for your input. It's a terrible world we live with regard to animal cruelty. We can say now that certain areas in certain countries are becoming aware e.g. the bear bile farms in Asia. Although some are illegal the practice still continues. The same with bear baiting, particularly in the Soviet countries.
You probably know there are rescues being made all the time, and although as yet, most animals suffering are unable to be rescued due to various reasons such as practices being illegal and hidden away . Every rescue is one less animal suffering and a few more tears of happiness and relief shed.
I have been to Pinnawala and walked to the village with the elephants for their river bath, but I can say honestly they were not chained. There was one chained in the "sanctuary" because he was in musth and could, of course, have been dangerous if loose. There was also a tiny baby who was restrained in an enclosure, the baby was too tiny to roam free with the other elephants and was being bottle fed every few hours.

Unless things have changed since we were there, I can assure you there were no elephants chained in the river. They were walked to the river each day and were having a great time doing what elephants do in water. I have photos, which I am sure I could find and show you if you wish.

The elephant sanctuaries we have visited in Kenya are extremely well run, the elephants are well cared for, but again tourists are allowed to visit, the money goes towards caring for the elephants.

Thailand and some other places are not the same. Pinnawala, at least when we went, does not give elephant rides, Kenya does not give elephant rides either, it would be a brave person who tried to ride an African elephant.

No animal should be kept simply for the amusement of tourists, but whilst ever tourists queue up to pay I'm afraid nothing much will change.
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10-01-2018, 01:17 PM
12

Re: Thailand , India and Asia

I suppose that there will always be conflicting views, Clumsy. One persons experience isn't always the same for the next.

As your review on here is written with honesty, others have also written their own reviews about their own experiences.

Probably best to read the word of authorities on such matters.

http://www.bornfree.org.uk/campaigns...ant-orphanage/

It is also easy to see the mahouts on site, carrying the ‘ankus’, the traditional elephant training tool. This long stick has sharp metal points at one end, which are used to control the elephant. Whilst these may be used irregularly, it is this threat of pain that makes elephants trainable, and hence makes it possible to herd the animals around the site and down to the river on a daily basis. When asked, mahouts in most places will generally say that although they have an ankus they very rarely use it – unfortunately this is not always the case. The training, threatening and herding of animals in this way, although practised throughout Asia, shows that the animals’ welfare cannot be given the highest priority, as one would hope from a facility calling itself a sanctuary.

The role of ‘sanctuary’ or ‘orphanage’ also conflicts with the stated policy of encouraging breeding at Pinnewala. Born Free does not support the keeping of animals in captivity unless it is for their own benefit – for example when they have been rescued from unacceptable captive conditions and are unable to be returned to the wild. To breed more animals for the purpose of being kept in zoos, or sent to private collections or temples, clearly does not satisfy this requirement. There is no need to breed Asian elephants for re-introduction, as there are already many areas where the areas of habitat are straining to hold the wild populations living in them. It is now illegal to capture wild elephants for captivity in Sri Lanka, except in special circumstances, and it seems that this policy is followed in order to provide animals for the captive market, and quite possibly for institutions where the welfare of the animals cannot be guaranteed.

These are our main concerns about the Pinnewala ‘Orphanage’ – the use of mahouts (with ankuses), the chaining of animals (especially during musth), and the breeding (with possible transfers to other captive institutions). Born Free is also concerned about other aspects of the facility that we do not consider appropriate. The physical contact between tourists and animals may provide a popular ‘photo opportunity’, but we feel that it is demeaning for the animals, and does not promote respect and compassion within the tourists. Similarly, the chaining of babies so that they can be fed in front of the crowds is not ideal.

The Born Free Foundation supports the Elephant Transit Home (ETH) in Udawalawe, in Southern Sri Lanka. This facility takes in baby wild elephants that have been separated from their mothers, and cares for them until they can be returned to the wild. Although Pinnewala may not be able to return its animals to the wild, it could certainly provide them with a more ‘natural’ life, as the protocols at the ETH demonstrate.

(There is a lot more to read but too much to paste on here.)
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10-01-2018, 02:00 PM
13

Re: Thailand , India and Asia

Originally Posted by Puddle Duck ->
Susan m, I hope you really enjoy your holiday.. it surely will be a holiday of a lifetime.

@Longdogs . Did you go to Pinnawala Sanctuary ?

There are accounts that the elephants bathing in the river there, are chained to the bottom. Some of them into lying down position. It's not an elephant orphan sanctuary, it's just a money making project under a different name.
The swaying they do is psychosis brought on by stress, lack of space and unnatural conditions.

@Surfermom, thanks for your input. It's a terrible world we live with regard to animal cruelty. We can say now that certain areas in certain countries are becoming aware e.g. the bear bile farms in Asia. Although some are illegal the practice still continues. The same with bear baiting, particularly in the Soviet countries.
You probably know there are rescues being made all the time, and although as yet, most animals suffering are unable to be rescued due to various reasons such as practices being illegal and hidden away . Every rescue is one less animal suffering and a few more tears of happiness and relief shed.
Yes. It was described to us as a sanctuary where injured elephants were cared for but it wasn't to be. I remember them bringing out a baby elephant for feeding. He was brought into a ring with hundreds of screaming kids around him whilst he ate his food. I didn't witness any physical abuse but the claim that these animals are left to live in peace is not true.

We did see a family of wild elephants that decided to cross the road in front of us and that was fantastic.
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10-01-2018, 02:32 PM
14

Re: Thailand , India and Asia

I think many places around the world referred to as "sanctuaries" or not really sanctuaries at all. Perhaps they start off with good intentions, but then realise that good intentions cost a lot of ongoing costs. So, open up the "sanctuaries" to tourism, but tourism requires giving tourists what they want and mostly what they want isn´t what is best for the animals. Like most things in life, it´s always down to money and lack of money to do the right thing.

The Born Free foundation does a lot of good work, but the Born Free foundation has many high profile backers, but even they still ask for money.

If people want to see animals living as they should be living, then a safari is the answer. Unfortunately safaris are not cheap, in fact they are ridiculously expensive, plus of course you are not guaranteed to see the particular animals you want to see.

I don´t know what the answer is, but whilst ever tourists want to visit these "sanctuaries", ride and elephant, a camel or whatever, this "abuse" will not cease.
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10-01-2018, 03:22 PM
15

Re: Thailand , India and Asia

I think the answer is to educate the 'tourists'

The begging elephant such as Raju in India was to feed the captors drug habit. Albeit, Raju had 27 different owners in his lifetime on the streets.

Did you watch the first video Clumsy ? It depicts exactly how these animals are forced and subjected to control . The so called 'sanctuaries' which manage to breed elephants (as does Pinnewala ) obviously sell them on to temples etc. for further mis-treatment.

.
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10-01-2018, 04:03 PM
16

Re: Thailand , India and Asia

The same goes for the carriage rides in Egypt. Tourists flock to them, not realising (or not caring about) the abuse the animals suffer. I have seen a horse collapse in the road and it's not a nice sight.
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10-01-2018, 04:32 PM
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Re: Thailand , India and Asia

I have rows with carriage drivers in Belize who grossly overload there carriages with great fat American tourists off cruise ships who seem to have no idea of kindness to animals The horses are small not draft animals and the heat and humidity is desperate .
If you go to Belize please don't go in the carriages .
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10-01-2018, 06:09 PM
18

Re: Thailand , India and Asia

Originally Posted by Puddle Duck ->
I think the answer is to educate the 'tourists'

The begging elephant such as Raju in India was to feed the captors drug habit. Albeit, Raju had 27 different owners in his lifetime on the streets.

Did you watch the first video Clumsy ? It depicts exactly how these animals are forced and subjected to control . The so called 'sanctuaries' which manage to breed elephants (as does Pinnewala ) obviously sell them on to temples etc. for further mis-treatment.

.
The big problem is how do you go about educating tourists?
Many are already educated in how badly animals are treated for the sake tourism, but once on their holidays they put all that aside and think they are helping the local people, or just putting their principles aside for the thrill of having an elephant pick them up with it´s trunk, walk over them or have a ride.

It´s like telling tourists to Africa, "please don´t give that appealing child money". They look at you as if you were the meanest person in the world, but giving that child money means he isn´t in school, where he should be. Give him a couple of pounds and it´s most likely more than his father, or mother can earn, so he´s sent out to smile appealingly at tourists, many of who presume the child has to pay to go to school, this is not so.

It´s the same with animals, people think they are giving money to contribute to the upkeep and welfare of the animals.

The horses and carriages, as Muddy points out, be they in Belize, Egypt or any other country that has scant regard for animals, are very badly abused and are lucky if they get food and water, never mind anything else.

I think before it´s even possible to educate tourists, it´s educating the tour operators that needs to be done. The greater majority of the tour reps who work for them in various countries are on commission, the more trips, experiences and thrills they can organise for you, the more commission they get.

Animals are a commodity to many people in many countries, the welfare of the animal means little, or nothing to them. It will take a great many years before it ever changes, if it does ever change.

There are many people and many organisations doing their best to change things, but it´s but a drop in the ocean. Whilst ever there are humans there will be abuse. We are truly a horrible species.
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10-01-2018, 07:57 PM
19

Re: Thailand , India and Asia

Maybe the answer is to tell of the great danger that tourists put themselves and their children into, by taking elephant rides , for example.

Many are the rampages of elephants, not only in India etc. but in USA within the circus compounds , where children are on the backs of these strong , agitated , angry and then uncontrollable animals, that take off without notice and kill people.
It is happening all the time.

Fortunately Ringling Bros. have been forced to send all their elephants into retirement, in the last 12 months.
Whether, circus, religious processions, or whatever, people should not be so ignorant.

Tour companies should be forced by law to instruct of the dangers that can result from such interaction with wild animals. I doubt any would volunteer to enter a lions cage , meaning they know the dangers !

Rampage.. India

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWmToj9Xy6s
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10-01-2018, 08:00 PM
20

Re: Thailand , India and Asia

Hi

Puddle Duck.

Been there and seen it for yourself or just relying on propaganda?

I have seen cats and dogs far worse treated here in the UK.

Perhaps we should start here and ban anyone keeping pets?
 
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