17-07-2017, 11:52 PM
21
Re: A Mess Up
Originally Posted by AnnieS
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This is what I mean by emotional patriotic chest-beating. It's pure propaganda and totally without logic. We have been in a mutually rewarding trading partnership with Europe since the Marshall plan was rolled out. We are on an equal par economically with Germany and France but somehow seem to be useless at driving the EU in the way they do. No point in blaming others or making it into some conspiracy. We had just as much power to influence based on our economic might and we let it all go because we could not be bothered. It's complacency and laziness that's got us into a political position we are not happy with. That same complacency and laziness is now creating a Brexit mess as everyone passes the hot potato because accountability is a dirty word.
There is plenty of evidence out there if you look. France, for example, pays far less than we do in 'membership fees'.
Then there's the small matter of the EU demanding ridiculously high 'exit fees' from us when we leave, yet they haven't had their accounts signed off for years so how on earth can they justify their figures?
18-07-2017, 12:07 AM
22
Re: A Mess Up
No, I believe we have allowed Germany to take control of the EU because it was so convenient for someone else to do the hard work and now we are complaining although we have done nothing to take control ourselves (in fact we had absolutely no interest in it). If France pays less than us it is purely due to our complacency in allowing that to happen and not arguing our corner enough. Our legal obligations relating to funding agreements we have signed vs the EU accounts status are two separate matters. We are in this position entirely because we allowed it to happen. We had power and clout and we didn't use it effectively. The same with the immigration issue. Other EU countries simply said no and faced the music, but we did not because it was super convenient for us to have cheap labour to power the economy and give us low prices and growth. There was absolutely no appetite to stop it at UK government level. British businesses were advertising abroad. We are not in Schengen. Yet what do you hear over here? Media and public blaming the EU for all the immigration and people taking our jobs. It's our fault entirely. We do what's easy and convenient and the EU is a nice scapegoat for our complacency.18-07-2017, 02:39 AM
23
Re: A Mess Up
HiI really do not see what the issue is here.
The EU has been taking us to the cleaners, but as Annie says, that is entirely down to us.
We do not even charge EU Migrants for use of the NHS.
How stupid is that?
The issue is the same idiots who made these sort of decisions will be the same idiots running the Country after we leave the EU.
The WTO is a much tougher place than the cozy EU, we we will shortly find out.
We are not best served by our Politicians.
18-07-2017, 02:49 AM
24
Re: A Mess Up
Originally Posted by JBR
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So you don't accept that the EU are taking us to the cleaners?There is plenty of evidence out there if you look. France, for example, pays far less than we do in 'membership fees'.
Then there's the small matter of the EU demanding ridiculously high 'exit fees' from us when we leave, yet they haven't had their accounts signed off for years so how on earth can they justify their figures?
The EU accounts not being signed off for years is a myth.
It is as big a myth as the £350 million a week.
https://fullfact.org/europe/did-audi...ign-eu-budget/
The fact is that our Politicians have signed enforceable agreements with the EU as regards funding.
We will have to pay these amounts, if we do not , we have defaulted.
Defaulting Countries do not get Trade Deals, no body trusts them to stick to agreements.
The costs of borrowing, currently above £40 Billion a year sky rockets, you have Junk Bond Status.
18-07-2017, 10:29 AM
25
Re: A Mess Up
You're both painting a convincing argument for remaining in the EU.So, yes, let's stay in. We shall become a region within the EU with no say in how the country is run. Perhaps, seeing our politicians 'in action' that might be a good thing.
On the other hand, we could quite likely become like Greece. We could lose everything for the common good of the EU, as they continue to take us to the cleaners. Why not? It will benefit the German people and, if they are nice little boys and girls, they might also pass on some of the benefits to the French.
That's OK by me, if that's what people really want. I shall not be here.
Yes, go ahead, you Remainers. You win. The same happened to Ireland some years ago, and I see no reason why it shouldn't happen here too.
'The United States of Europe'. It has a certain ring about it, doesn't it? Once we're gone, and with the Frogs sucking up to them, the poorer countries of Europe shouldn't prove much of a problem.
18-07-2017, 01:09 PM
27
Re: A Mess Up
Originally Posted by AnnieS
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We would never have been Greece because the Euro is the big problem in southern Europe. We very wisely chose to stay out of that experiment. Our economy was doing well.
If return to the EU happens, I think you'll find a lot of changes in this country.
18-07-2017, 01:13 PM
28
Re: A Mess Up
Originally Posted by JBR
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You're both painting a convincing argument for remaining in the EU.So, yes, let's stay in. We shall become a region within the EU with no say in how the country is run. Perhaps, seeing our politicians 'in action' that might be a good thing.
On the other hand, we could quite likely become like Greece. We could lose everything for the common good of the EU, as they continue to take us to the cleaners. Why not? It will benefit the German people and, if they are nice little boys and girls, they might also pass on some of the benefits to the French.
That's OK by me, if that's what people really want. I shall not be here.
Yes, go ahead, you Remainers. You win. The same happened to Ireland some years ago, and I see no reason why it shouldn't happen here too.
'The United States of Europe'. It has a certain ring about it, doesn't it? Once we're gone, and with the Frogs sucking up to them, the poorer countries of Europe shouldn't prove much of a problem.
That saves money.
Start with defence, then do foreign aid, then how about obeying fishing limits, oh, & how about free immigration.
What about paying more for farmers to leave fields "fallow"?
We'll be quids in!
18-07-2017, 03:39 PM
29
Re: A Mess Up
Originally Posted by Tedc
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If we did stay in (God Forbid) I suggest we run some education, for the Brits, to ensure that they ignore everything which they sign up for.(Just like our EU Brothers do)That saves money.
Start with defence, then do foreign aid, then how about obeying fishing limits, oh, & how about free immigration.
What about paying more for farmers to leave fields "fallow"?
We'll be quids in!
You seem unaware of even the simplest facts.
Our Defence Spending is naff all to do with the EU. It is our choice.
Our Foreign Aid Spending is naff all to do with the EU. It is our choice.
Fishing Limits>
We gave our inshore fisheries to the EU.
We were the only country to do that.
It was our choice to do so.
Free Immigration?
We have more Immigration from outside the EU than we do from inside.
Nothing to do with the EU at all, it is entirely our decision to allow it.
The EU does not pay farmers to leave fields fallow and has not done so since 2008.
In 2009 Hillary Benn, the Labour Minister, re introduced partial set aside to encourage wildlife corridors.
Again, UK decision, not EU.
Whilst we are at it, the EU does not pay or subsidise farmers to grow oilseed rape either.
The current scheme is a single farm payment, based on size, the farmers can do what they want.
So, as we can see from the above, it is all down to us here in the UK.
Leaving will have no affect in these things.
We are already taking back our inshore fisheries, different agreement to the EU, we gave them away before we joined.
Our off shore fishery quotas we sold, we didn't have to, we decided to.
We will have to buy them back from foreign companies.
As for the EU stealing our fish.
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-pinching-our-fish/
Leaving the EU will not save a penny, it will cost money.
How much it costs and how long before we develop new markets to recover those losses depends on the success of our politicians.
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