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Uncle Joe
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31-08-2012, 02:49 PM
11

Re: Don't you just love Word-smiths!

But putting all that aside, the Death Tax on already taxed estates is WRONG.

In the words of the prophet - TOUGH!!! - live with it!!!
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31-08-2012, 03:18 PM
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Re: Don't you just love Word-smiths!

It's maggies fault all right, the home ownership she encouraged, coupled with house price inflation, have caused Inheritance Tax to become an issue for Joe Public at large, but one thing to watch out for (as will inevitably happen) when the house price bubble deflates further, the inheritance threshold has not been index linked to average house values, so in a downward market most folks would remain on the radar.
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Aerolor
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31-08-2012, 03:40 PM
13

Re: Don't you just love Word-smiths!

I suppose I am guilty of sending this thread a little of course, so I will put aside for the moment, the parts of this thread which I feel uncomfortable with and stick to the subject of inheritance tax.

Inheritance tax is quite an easy tax to collect, so it seems logical to me to leave it in place. After all, the dead cannot keep the money and why should someone who has not actually earned it benefit. I am not really thinking about the relatively small amounts of inheritance tax many people pay on the relatively modest amounts left when they die, but rather the large amounts of wealth and property which has managed to be handed down by hook or by crook and has remained within the same families for years. To me it is right and proper that inheritance tax should be paid on these types of inheritance.
To put a tax on children being born would be far harder to collect, I think, and it could not really be called a tax but rather a charge for having children. By the way I don't think the average family has been 2.4 children for many years and I think the average is now something like 1.7 so how many would fall into the category anyway where they pay a charge for having more than the average number of children? - It would have to be set at any more than one child, I think.

I can see the sense in many of your posts Erinaceous, but I can't help feeling a little uncomfortable about the divisive nature of some things. Many people come into this country and contribute a lot to our society - some don't. The same could be said for our indigenous population.
We must not lose our social welfare and health systems; they have been so hard fought for and won. Agreed, we must trim and amend to suit our current circumstances and we must not live beyond our means, but I think it is so wrong to say these things must go because we simply cannot afford them.

On a final note, we are not the only country suffering at the moment - there are countries who are in deeper than we are and I think it is incorrect and too easy a cop out to simply lay the blame at the feet of Blair and Brown.

Didn't Maggie have a lot to do with the destruction of our manufacturing industries? She was the one who said something like Britain could survive on banking and finance, I believe. She was also a shopkeeper's daughter, so where was her useful contribution to manufacturing in this country? In reality, I believe she did a lot of damage to our manufacturing capability in this country, but I digress again - it's so easy to do, so I'll stop now.
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31-08-2012, 03:41 PM
14

Re: Don't you just love Word-smiths!

Fortunately there are means to mitigate Death Tax liability, and any half decent Independent Financial Advisor will explain how.

They do charge, but the initial consultation is usually free and an illustration of their costs for services provided will given,

If there's no investment management involved then the cost will be surprisingly low but the savings can be many many times more than the charges that they make.

Time is of the essence ,so if your estate is in the order of a million or more in the case of a married couple best get things under way at once.

A million might seem a very unlikely sum for most people but with property prices as they are, especially where a large garden is involved when the value of the site may well exceed the value of the existing house, it's as well to at the very least look into this important aspect of later life.
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31-08-2012, 03:52 PM
15

Re: Don't you just love Word-smiths!

especially where a large garden is involved when the value of the site may well exceed the value of the existing house, it's as well to at the very least look into this important aspect of later life.

Or the local council could compulsory purchase and build a council house on it.
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Aerolor
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31-08-2012, 03:56 PM
16

Re: Don't you just love Word-smiths!

Erinaceous said - "Fortunately there are means to mitigate Death Tax liability, and any half decent Independent Financial Advisor will explain how.

They do charge, but the initial consultation is usually free and an illustration of their costs for services provided will given".


Been there, done it and bought the tee-shirt Erinaceous. We are well on the way to doing what is legal to make sure we have little left to tax when we have gone. When my parents died they left a house and some money to my sister and I and I immediately gave over my inheritance to our children - it seemed like the best thing to do as we didn't need it. However, our efforts are peanuts compared with what the seriously wealthy can do by way of avoidance or mitigation.
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31-08-2012, 06:43 PM
17

Re: Don't you just love Word-smiths!

Originally Posted by Aerolor ->
[I]

Been there, done it and bought the tee-shirt Erinaceous. We are well on the way to doing what is legal to make sure we have little left to tax when we have gone. When my parents died they left a house and some money to my sister and I and I immediately gave over my inheritance to our children - it seemed like the best thing to do as we didn't need it. However, our efforts are peanuts compared with what the seriously wealthy can do by way of avoidance or mitigation.
Oh I see, so you agree with the tax as long as you personally don't have to pay it? Isn't there a contradiction there somewhere? If you agree with the tax and think it's good for the country then why would you want to mitigate your personal liability, something which you apparently disagree with according to your post? Your apparent distinction between paltry sums and wealth handed down over generations holds no water, having great wealth is not a crime, but the politics of spite and envy should be.

I was going to take you to task and ask you to try to make a moral case for retaining the tax rather than just saying you agreed with it, but my understanding of your stance is much clearer now...
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Aerolor
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31-08-2012, 07:16 PM
18

Re: Don't you just love Word-smiths!

What I actually thought I said Barry was that I believe inheritance tax is a better (more profitable) tax than Erinaceous's proposal of taxing children being born. My reasons are that I think collecting tax via inheritance tax is a far simpler - I really don't think a tax on children could work at all.
It may seem like a contradiction on my part Barry, but basically, it is true that those who leave money or property will no longer need it and so, in principle, why shouldn't it be taxed. People inheriting have not earned it and so my thinking is that it should be taxed again if it is there. That does not stop me from feeling that it is only prudent that before I die I should mitigate the amount likely to be deducted in tax after I have died, just as I could choose to spend it all if I please whilst I am alive - and this is what I have chosen to do - spend it on the children whilst I am alive, in an attempt to give them a bit of a boost and security once we are gone.
I agree having great wealth is not (usually) a crime. I do see a distinction though between someone who has lived modestly and worked hard all their life to achieve what they have from scratch and someone who has simply had great wealth handed down over generations and drop into their lap just for being born into that wealth. IMO people should do something to actually earn wealth for themselves. I don't think this means I am subscribing to the the politics of spite and envy (I envy nobody and I certainly never intend to be spiteful) but it is very easy to think that of me if you believe I have double standards.
By the way I do believe that lottery wins should be taxed - it is also unearned wealth.
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01-09-2012, 01:11 PM
19

Re: Don't you just love Word-smiths!

My apologies if I have misunderstood your views Rena, but there does seem some contradiction between what you believe and what you practice. For example you say that people should not be entitled to money they haven't earned untaxed, yet you give to your own children unearned money early to stop the money being taxed... so yes, there does seem to be a double standard in your postings.

I also fail to understand why the extremely wealthy should be treated any differently to any other section of society. If they have paid their taxes required during their lives and wealth generation years then their wealth should not be taxed again. I tire of these attacks on the wealthy as they are usually some of the real driving forces of our economy, wealth creates wealth for all, and if the wealthy are continually penalised for their wealth then we will all be the poorer eventually.
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Aerolor
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01-09-2012, 02:17 PM
20

Re: Don't you just love Word-smiths!

I can see why you think there is some contradiction in what I am saying Barry, and maybe you have just a "bit" of a point, but what if a fond relative, who didn't need it and could afford it, offered you an expensive gift, say new car and new caravan for nothing. Would you expect the gift to be taxed if you accepted the gift? If not, then what is wrong with gifting money to children and grandchildren for a specific purpose while we are alive. I think there is a difference between gifts when alive and an inheritance when someone is dead. We could easily have not saved a penny - gambled or spent everything we earned, but we didn't - we paid our taxes and actually lived far more modest lives than many would have done with our income. So in my eyes - whilst we are still alive and the money is totally ours, taxed and legally gained - then it is ours to do what we want with. It's not an inheritance - what we are doing is gifting while we are still alive and I think everyone who can will likely do the same.

I am a bit more ambivalent about the very wealthy, but I assume they also give as much away whilst they are alive or protect it from inheritance tax. There is much wealth tied securely up and doing nothing much to further the good of the country or create wealth for the country. I am not attacking the wealthy at all. I realise that wealth (wehn it is being used) creates wealth and the country needs entrepreneurs (even though proportionately much wealth is not always shared equitably with those who have helped create the wealth for individuals. There has been and still is much exploitation going on all over the world. What we might call immoral is called astute business acumen and is admired in many circles. I just feel that there are so many ways the truly wealthy can manage to hold on to the majority of their wealth without using it. The truly wealthy don't even gamble everything like their ancestors may have done in the beginning. They are also not such "easy meat" for governments to control as the "unwashed herd" who, for the most part are compelled to work all their lives to survive and provide for their families. I agree, there is a really fine balance between the wealthy moving their resources elsewhere and keeping them financially satisfied here and there are no easy solutions in achieving that balance. I am not a politician, a policy maker or an economist. I am of the "one for you and one for me" brigade.
One little thing I have just remembered is that when we emigrated to Canada years ago we were not allowed by the government of the day to take all our funds out of the country with us. I forget what the amount actually was that we were allowed to take, but in reality it meant that the majority of our funds had to remain in this country. So things must have changed quite a bit since then.
 
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