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Barry
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13-11-2016, 10:07 AM
41

Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!

Originally Posted by Flicker ->
So when the process starts to kick in, when laws and constitutions have to be obeyed, when it is suddenly clear that to break a treaty (which is what the UK signed with the EU in 1972) requires both sides to agree, the more soberly this process will proceed.
and we may see fewer hissy fits and foot stamping.
Particularly from the remoaners hopefully....
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Flicker
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13-11-2016, 10:20 AM
42

Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!

Originally Posted by Meg ->
I find that rather patronising Flicker, assuming that those who voted to leave didn't understand what their vote might mean.
Some perhaps, I did and anticipated a bit of uncertainty, maybe a rise in prices a sacrifice I was prepared to make for my freedom and that of my grandchildren

If those who voted to remain would stop trying to thwart the will of the majority there would be a lot less 'uncertainty'.
If ignoring your own constitution is thwarting the majority then th constitution has just been relegated to the trash can and the rule of law is dead.
The relative positions of power between the various bodies of the legislature, the judiciary and the Crown will have been unravelled and act as a precedent which allows the govt to override the MP's who are democratically elected and do what they please. Including dissolving parliament.

As for "knowing ", did you know that?
Did you know that the EU can block your leaving?

A bit if uncertainty???
A rise in prices? What will the "left behinds" feel when their process go up far more in relative terms than yours?
I think you have well underestimated the cost to the country, now estimated at 6 billion in the first 4 months when the cost of imports haven't kicked in yet and the cost to jobs, markets, the potential of the young, science and research, farming and 5000 GBP per day for the dozens of negotiators over years has all been tallied.

No one is thwarting the will of the people. They at merely making sure the law is followed because A50 says the nations can leave "according to the terms of their constitution

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.


and no mob rule can change the constitution.
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13-11-2016, 10:22 AM
43

Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!

Originally Posted by Barry ->
Particularly from the remoaners hopefully....
Well from my perspective it is the Leavers who are stamping their feet when they don't get it all their way immediately.
I can't help but visualise a child in a pram screaming because it can't do what it wants. NOW!!!
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Flicker
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13-11-2016, 10:26 AM
44

Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!

Originally Posted by Nom ->
Im sure both Germany and Luxembourg will weather Brexit. France seems to be the country with much to lose over our departure. Civil disobedience and many more strikes could follow. As there are those already there who feel the same.

Add in having to pay more for its keep and migrant unrest, i would venture the future may not be that bright.
France has never exhibited civil disobedience over the EU.
It has ALWAYS exhibited civil disobedience over working conditions and other things because of a certain relationship between the people and the govt.
It is too complicated to explain here and is off topic.
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Flicker
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13-11-2016, 10:30 AM
45

Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!

Originally Posted by JBR ->
That's not what I remember reading on the leaflet that came through my letterbox.

We shall have to wait and see how the Supreme Court views that.

And the third emboldened point would be better addressed to the whingeing remainiacs.

I believe that the most outrageous thing is that people like Fallon and doing all they can to ignore what the majority of voters asked for.

What you read was propaganda.
and what was said was so watered down for simplicity that a LOT was left unsaid.
Hence my statement that the population had a very small understanding of what they voted for and how it was going to happen.

Did it say for example that the 27 other states in the EU and a qualified majority of the EU Parliament have to approve
your leaving?
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13-11-2016, 10:36 AM
46

Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!

Getting Dizzy with this flurry of posts.
Julie1962
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13-11-2016, 10:37 AM
47

Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!

Originally Posted by Flicker ->
What you read was propaganda.
and what was said was so watered down for simplicity that a LOT was left unsaid.
Hence my statement that the population had a very small understanding of what they voted for and how it was going to happen.

Did it say for example that the 27 other states in the EU and a qualified majority of the EU Parliament have to approve
your leaving?
Are you saying I have been right all along its a protection racket that we won't be allowed to get out of ? That's the thing wars start over, actually it has taken less than that sometimes.
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Flicker
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13-11-2016, 10:43 AM
48

Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!

Originally Posted by Realist ->
Hard to take you seriously Flicker. All this talk of needing to follow constitution now the people have voted to leave, and yet before that referendum, where was that constitution?

The constitution, and all associated articles, the Bill Of Rights, Declaration Of Rights, Magna Carta and even basic Common Law have all been fraudulently undermined by successive governments and with the Queen signing off parliamentary bills which appear to amount to acts of treason.

Our Common Law includes the Charter of Liberties, which makes the Monarch subject to the law, the 1102 Synod of Westminster, which abolished slavery in England, the 1627 Petition of Right, which granted the right to criticise the government without fear of arrest, as well as Magna Carta and the Declaration of Right. Common Law defends property rights and rights to self defence.

The 5 EU treaties (Lisbon etc) undermine these basic foundational rights of Britain that go back to the reign of Alfred The Great. Once the 6th and final EU Treaty is signed, people will not be free to criticise EU governance. EU member countries have to tow the EU party line and support its aims and agendas. It's all there in the clauses of those treaties.

The Declaration of Right, and the Bill of Rights, clearly state that:

"no foreign prince, person, prelate, state, or potentate hath, or ought to have, any jurisdiction, power, superiority, pre-eminence, or authority, ecclesiastical or spiritual, within this realm."

It therefore can clearly be seen that every EU treaty imposed upon us by Parliament, is unconstitutional. They undermine Common Law, Declaration Of Rights and the Bill Of Rights.
Thus anyone, and everyone, who has participated in pushing those EU treaties through and signing them, has in effect committed treason.

It means the Queen has broken her Coronation Oath, by giving Royal Assent to these treaties when instead she should have upheld our basic constitutional rights and protected our sovereignty.

Other key rights which we had included:

- The right to bear arms
- The right to petition the Sovereign
- Free men cannot be imprisoned without cause
- The Government cannot arrest any man because he disagrees with the Government’s policies
- Habeas corpus is not to be denied
- No person will be compelled to make loans to the King, and there will be no tax without the approval of Parliament
- Soldiers and sailors will not be billeted on civilians
- Government will not impose martial law during peacetime

Many of these rights have been undermined and further sealing of the EU treaties would have eradicated most. Things like being imprisoned without cause. The EU has already demonstrated it can and will imprison people first and then let them seek innocence afterwards (which is somewhat difficult whilst being in prison!).

In short, any talk of British Constitution at this juncture is puerile in the extreme. It has already been illegally, fraudulently and purposefully swept under the carpet by corrupt parliamentary officials who are working for darker powers. All responsible should be tried for treason.
First many of those issues are not constitutional. They belin in civil law.
Secondly most still exist in civil law.
So let's look at sovereignty.
The elected house and the Other Place both have scrutiny committees who look at EVERY draft law handed down from the EU.
They can either rubber stamp it, refer it for Parliamentary consultation and approval or rejection or dismiss it.
This is how the UK obtained so many opt outs and how one small region of Belgium caused so much grief. How Ireland negotiated two passages of the Lisbon Treaty that countered their onw constitution...one ensuring neutrality in war and the other about abortion rights.
Every EU piece of legislation be they decisions, directives, or recommendation, is put before the national parliaments for scrutiny.
I suggest hat charges of lack of democracy and disrespect for sovereignty are disproven when you know how the system works. Nothing can be more respectful of these principles than the EU.
and to say the EU IMPOSES law on the country is patently wrong...every law from Brussels has been allowed by your elected representatives to enter the British statute books.

So instead of railing against the EU perhaps you should lobby your own MP to challenge EU law.
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Flicker
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13-11-2016, 10:46 AM
49

Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!

Originally Posted by Julie1962 ->
Are you saying I have been right all along its a protection racket that we won't be allowed to get out of ? That's the thing wars start over, actually it has taken less than that sometimes.

I am saying that you ay have to get used to negotiating instead of throwing your weight around and making demands.
The EU will almost certainly let you go but at some price of their own choosing. That is called negotiating. Give and take. And some of the terms may not be to your liking. Depends on how much you want to leave.
Flowerpower
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13-11-2016, 11:20 AM
50

Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!

Originally Posted by Flicker ->
Well from my perspective it is the Leavers who are stamping their feet when they don't get it all their way immediately.
I can't help but visualise a child in a pram screaming because it can't do what it wants. NOW!!!
You ARE joking right? As soon as the referendum results were announced and we all saw the shock and horror on Dimblebys face when he was forced to announce that the majority had voted LEAVE the Remainers started behaving like spoilt brats.

We all know it was a massive, massive shock and a whole lot of people just could not accept it even thought the Govt had told us that our decision would be respected.

It's gone on like that ever since and they've been scraping the barrel trying to come up with excuses and reasons to back up their childish behaviour.
 
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