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JBR
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08-09-2017, 08:13 PM
41

Re: No Deal is better than a Bad Deal.

Originally Posted by AnnieS ->
You fail to address the point which is that you don't address the points! I can justify why we shouldn't leave and why we should have stayed to reform the EU given our clout as one of the top three contributors. You can't justify why we should leave other than saying it's "a democratic decision" which is bunkum as an argument. You say I'm misguided whilst being unable to provide any guidance yourself. You seem to have faith in these negotiators as if they are magicians. Snake oil and santa claus is all you have to give any substance to your responses. It's a very "snowflake" approach.

What more do you have other than throwing back the ball to me? Any hard facts and evidence that leaving is going to make us better off (in the next five years say)? I'm preparing to be dazzled and amazed, but please bear in mind that I like logic and not sentiment
I'm afraid you have justified nothing. You are simply suggesting that we could reform the EU by staying in without providing any hard evidence of that. Listen to the latest words from the EU's negotiators as widely reported. With an attitude like that, do you really think that they would listen to anything we say?
Alternatively, have you any evidence that we have influenced how the EU works up to now?

Do you have any hard facts and evidence that staying is going to make us better off?

One thing that I most certainly justify is that we have made a democratic decision to leave the EU. If you think that's 'bunkum', I assume you can prove that the remainiacs took more than 50% of the vote.
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08-09-2017, 08:35 PM
42

Re: No Deal is better than a Bad Deal.

Hi

The EU were not in any way responsible for some of the utterly stupid decisions we took.

The attitude of the EU negotiators is quite simple, they are looking after their own best interests, a lesson we could learn from them.

In 18 months we are out in the big bad world and we need our Politicians to step up to the mark and deliver what they have promised, a better standard of living outside the EU.

It is my view, that, at the present time, they are more interested in looking after themselves.
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08-09-2017, 09:09 PM
43

Re: No Deal is better than a Bad Deal.

Originally Posted by JBR ->

One thing that I most certainly justify is that we have made a democratic decision to leave the EU. If you think that's 'bunkum', I assume you can prove that the remainiacs took more than 50% of the vote.
Just to answer this one point. I said it's bunkum as an argument for leaving. You need to do better than that! It's not a point to justify your views about leaving.
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08-09-2017, 09:11 PM
44

Re: No Deal is better than a Bad Deal.

Originally Posted by AnnieS ->
Just to answer this one point. I said it's bunkum as an argument for leaving. You need to do better than that! It's not a point to justify your views about leaving.
Have you justified your reasons for remaining?
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08-09-2017, 09:22 PM
45

Re: No Deal is better than a Bad Deal.

Originally Posted by JBR ->
I'm afraid you have justified nothing. You are simply suggesting that we could reform the EU by staying in without providing any hard evidence of that. Listen to the latest words from the EU's negotiators as widely reported. With an attitude like that, do you really think that they would listen to anything we say?
Alternatively, have you any evidence that we have influenced how the EU works up to now?

Do you have any hard facts and evidence that staying is going to make us better off?
Yes there are plenty of economic arguments for staying in a developed trading union where you have a safe playing field for business, uniform regulations, a common market. Do really you want me to bore you with the economic benefits of efficiency and certainty vs separate markets and political upheaval? You see the results of our decision in the fall in sterling, which is the fastest barometer that confidence in our economic stability has diminished. We have been a nice place to do business, now business is waiting to see whether that's going to carry on (while they plan for the storm by making contingency plans). But surely you don't need me to explain this to you? You made your voting decision based on hard economic facts did you not?!

I don't care for reports by our press which are highly biased given what Cable said on the radio today. I couldn't actually believe what he was saying as he said it. I think he didn't mean to say so much himself. We are spoon-fed news depending on what some un-elected mandarins decide we should see/hear. The latest words from eu negotiators? Such a load of twaddle propaganda to make the vote leavers' hearts swell at their decision. Do you really think the UK had no influence?

How do you think we will have influence outside the EU if you don't believe we had influence within?! Have you really thought this through - be honest now!
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08-09-2017, 09:26 PM
46

Re: No Deal is better than a Bad Deal.

Originally Posted by JBR ->
Have you justified your reasons for remaining?
So you really are not able to justify your arguments for leaving unless these are sentimental and based on your "beliefs" that somehow it will be right as rain because you have so much faith in our politicians to make things ok again? Or to shoot arrows at the EU for being the baddies.... nothing with any substance other than cartoon metaphors to back up your convictions.
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08-09-2017, 09:29 PM
47

Re: No Deal is better than a Bad Deal.

Most leavers that I spoke to only had one argument, usually "we don't want Turkey to join". Very well thought out don't you think?
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08-09-2017, 10:06 PM
48

Re: No Deal is better than a Bad Deal.

Originally Posted by AnnieS ->
So you really are not able to justify your arguments for leaving unless these are sentimental and based on your "beliefs" that somehow it will be right as rain because you have so much faith in our politicians to make things ok again? Or to shoot arrows at the EU for being the baddies.... nothing with any substance other than cartoon metaphors to back up your convictions.
I think that this discussion is going nowhere. Neither of us can prove our points beyond any doubt. Time will tell.

The only thing that HAS been proved beyond doubt is that the majority in the referendum voted to leave, so we are leaving.

I am perfectly satisfied with that.

I know you are unhappy with it, of course, and that you are desperately trying to persuade ME that I was wrong, but any such attempts are pointless: we ARE leaving whether you like it or not.

I think you'd be better occupied in trying to persuade Comrade Corbyn not to do another U-turn and vote in favour of our Brexit negotiations.
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08-09-2017, 10:29 PM
49

Re: No Deal is better than a Bad Deal.

Originally Posted by JBR ->
I think that this discussion is going nowhere. Neither of us can prove our points beyond any doubt. Time will tell.

The only thing that HAS been proved beyond doubt is that the majority in the referendum voted to leave, so we are leaving.

I am perfectly satisfied with that.

I know you are unhappy with it, of course, and that you are desperately trying to persuade ME that I was wrong, but any such attempts are pointless: we ARE leaving whether you like it or not.

I think you'd be better occupied in trying to persuade Comrade Corbyn not to do another U-turn and vote in favour of our Brexit negotiations.

Actually I can prove my point very well because year on year (2008 US crash excluded) we were experiencing growth and business confidence because we were in an economic union that provided business confidence and stability. There were lots of things wrong with the country but that wasn't because of the EU.

What you are unable to do is prove your point of view other than hide behind the referendum result (which as I've said is a bunkum argument to use to justify your position). Saying "the sky will fall in" is not making a point.

If you think I care about Corbyn then you haven't been paying attention.
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08-09-2017, 11:28 PM
50

Re: No Deal is better than a Bad Deal.

Originally Posted by AnnieS ->
Actually I can prove my point very well because year on year (2008 US crash excluded) we were experiencing growth and business confidence because we were in an economic union that provided business confidence and stability. There were lots of things wrong with the country but that wasn't because of the EU.

What you are unable to do is prove your point of view other than hide behind the referendum result (which as I've said is a bunkum argument to use to justify your position). Saying "the sky will fall in" is not making a point.

If you think I care about Corbyn then you haven't been paying attention.
The economic argument was only one aspect of the Leavers'
reasons for voting Leave.
There were political reasons also , such as the EU's unilateral decision to push an agenda of ever closer union , it's programme of expansionism and it's totalitarian response to the crises in many southern European economies. Also it's response to the migrant crisis was slow, ineffective and contrary to the wishes and sensibilities of most British voters.
THere is a deeply held belief amongst Leavers that the UK will come through the initial negatives of Leaving the EU and thrive regardless. There is no tangible proof that won't happen.
There is evidence from Juncker's and Barnier's shocking , consistently angry attitude towards the UK and these negotiations that they are only interested in the money they can wring from us and not in the future relationship with us. They are pigs( drunken pigs in Juncker's case, apparently)
with their noses in the trough filled with British cash.

The idea that we will lose all trade with EU countries is the big lie of the Remain argument and no-one really buys it.

As for the £ losing value..... it needed re valuing and the UK has had some major benefits in seeing the £ being devalued!!
 
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