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Flicker
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14-11-2016, 11:45 AM
101

Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!

Originally Posted by Julie1962 ->
If the people rise up it won't matter what the laws are or procedures. They have started a ball rolling if they had no intention of doing anything they have played a dangerous game because many are fed up with what we have not just Europe but our own government and MPs too.

Are you suggesting a revolution?

By all means but stock your larders and prepare for bloodshed.
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Flicker
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14-11-2016, 11:50 AM
102

Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!

Originally Posted by swimfeeders ->
Hi

I am not in agreement with the interpretation of the current situation as given by Flicker.

We are not breaking an International Treaty, we are complying with the rules of that Treaty, specifically Article 50. which allows a Member State to leave.

That treaty also states that at the end of the two year period of negotiation, membership automatically ceases unless all parties agree an extension.

I find it somewhat strange that a member should continue to post an opposing view to that given by the EU, even when a link has been posted to the EU's own website which specifies their position.
Because you only read half the paragraph!

It says (and I have already quoted it) that you can leave
1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.


IOW you can leave as long as your constitutional process has been followed. That is what this discussion is about.
I am expressing EXACTLY what the EU says. I suggest you red it again and not skip the bits you don't like.
Realist
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14-11-2016, 12:19 PM
103

Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!

Flicker, I fear you are just not getting it here.

The point that needs to be understood and taken on board, is that Britain's entire presence within the EU is illegal.

The very Bill you cite, the European Communities Bill of 1972 was pushed through parliament illegally by Ted Heath's government.

It was illegal because British constitution (however we choose to label and define it) very clearly stated (and still states) that parliament requires a prior consultation of the people (either by a general election or a referendum) on any measure involving constitutional change.

The European Communities Bill of 1972 clearly represented constitutional change because it was handing our sovereignty over to the EU. Heath knew this. However polls at the time indicated that the people would never have voted the Bill through in a referendum. The people were opposed to going into the EU by a margin of 2 to 1.

So Heath pushed the Bill through, illegally, changing British constitution WITHOUT the consent of the British people and presumably the Queen, who swore a Coronation Oath to uphold our "laws and customs" also broke that oath in ratifying it.

Everything else beyond this point is utterly pointless debating.

Our entry into the EU and thus all the changes to our fundamental constitution is founded on an illegal act, an act of treason in fact, and as such, everything else that followed after is of no legal concern. We were taken into the EU illegally in the first place and so that fundamental issue is the one that should enable us to sever ties now very quickly.

The people are the sovereign power in an elected democracy. Parliament DO NOT have legal or moral right to change British Constitution without the consent of the electorate.

The 1689 Bill of Rights contains the following oath:

`I do declare that no foreign prince, person, prelate, state or potentate hath or ought to have jurisdiction, power, superiority, pre-eminence or authority within this Realm.'

This means EVERY EU Treaty that has been signed by parliament and the Queen is breaching that fundamental piece of our constitution, the Bill Of Rights. The EU Treaties are therefore illegal. No-one, can pass such a treaty that changes our constitution WITHOUT the consent of the people (i.e. referendum). The fact that 5 of the 6 EU Treaties have been so signed and ratified by successive governments and the Queen is utterly shocking and unacceptable. All need to be held to account for breaching the constitution and failing to uphold their sworn oaths.

Ted Heath should very obviously have held a referendum in 1972, but didn't because they knew the British people would never vote to join the EU and hand over their sovereignty and all that goes with it.

This year, the sovereign electorate, again, demonstrated it's unwillingness to be a part of the EU by voting to Leave in a referendum. Whilst that referendum was a useful guide as to the will of the people it is utterly irrelevant to the core fact that our entire presence within the EU is already illegal and fraudulent. So the June referendum actually makes no difference whatsoever. We were forced into the EU illegally and thus we should immediately sever any links to the EU, declare that the position is illegal and that as a consequence NO EU LAWS CAN POSSIBLY APPLY TO THE UK.

Now I am a practical man and I can see that the years of being illegally forced into the EU had allowed business and trade and structure to form around that UK-EU fraudulent relationship and thus those things need to be exited from carefully and in the best interests of the UK. Whilst that may take some time, the fundamental aspects of declaring our EU membership null and void should press on regardless.
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14-11-2016, 12:31 PM
104

Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!

Originally Posted by Flicker ->
Are you suggesting a revolution?

By all means but stock your larders and prepare for bloodshed.
Not a pleasant prospect but quite a possible one. When the ruling powers walk over or abolish the fundamental rights of the people, what you have is a tyranny and/or dictatorship.

The powers that be know this which is why they have FEMA style camps set up all over the country and are prepared for mass protests, civil unrest and revolution. It is not a good omen.
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14-11-2016, 12:33 PM
105

Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!

Originally Posted by Flicker ->
Are you suggesting a revolution?

By all means but stock your larders and prepare for bloodshed.
If the people are duped then yes I think if could happen. I hope not obviously but it was a vote against establishment as much as a vote to leave eu.
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14-11-2016, 01:10 PM
106

Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!

Hi

I really do not get this talk of revolution.

Invariably peaceful protests get hijacked by the extremists, rioting, looting, petrol bombs.

It is always the weakest who suffer.

We have started our Revolution, the Referendum, a kick in the teeth for the Political Elite.

We can continue it through the Ballot Box, it may take longer, but the result is the same, without any injury or loss of life.
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Flicker
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14-11-2016, 01:20 PM
107

Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!

Originally Posted by Realist ->
Not a pleasant prospect but quite a possible one. When the ruling powers walk over or abolish the fundamental rights of the people, what you have is a tyranny and/or dictatorship.

The powers that be know this which is why they have FEMA style camps set up all over the country and are prepared for mass protests, civil unrest and revolution. It is not a good omen.

I think you have mistaken what fundamental rights are.
In the UK fundamental rights are expressed through Parliament and the law.

That many people don't know this is not reason to trash the British constitution. That indeed would be tyranny of the mob.

Judges and politicicans are bound to obey the law. That the large majority of the population does not know the law is no excuse to ignore it.

On a personal note I am amazed that you don't respect your own sovereignty after demanding it so vociferously. This is the way the UK works if the Supreme Court says so.
That the popularly motivated 4% of the British population voted for something can stamp their feet and shout "we want it and we want it now" BWWWAAA if we don't get it (even tho threatening a revolution) is not telling me the country is stable enough to make its own decisions thoughtfully. Thank goodness for the Parliamentary system that is in places...where mature reflection and 360° context from all places and opinions can control the country calmly.
Mob rule is a horror and the men who designed the system were very very wise.

There are miles to go yet. Are the people of the UK going to spend the next at least two years whining if they can't simply send a letter to Brussels and clear their desks?

If the Supreme Court decides the direct voice of the people overrides Parliament then the entire constitution and nearly 1000 years of govt in the UK is tossed out of the window.
No one is trying to thwart anything...the conspiracy implied in this just hysterical mob conspiracy.
However the very system of govt may trip you up. It may not...but it could. In any case leaving is not going to be without its delays. So I suggest you sit back calmly and watch the drama.
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14-11-2016, 01:26 PM
108

Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!

Originally Posted by swimfeeders ->
We can continue it through the Ballot Box, it may take longer, but the result is the same, without any injury or loss of life.
As I've said before, if and when the matter is voted on in Parliament, MPs will first examine their constituents' opinions about Brexit. If the majority of their constituents voted in favour of Brexit, and they vote against it in Parliament, they'll have no excuse for their disappointment that will follow in the next general election.

MPs know on which side their bread is buttered and their own well being will always come first before anything else: their constituents, their party, their country. That's what MPs are like.
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Flicker
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14-11-2016, 01:27 PM
109

Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!

and I don't get this "stand against the establishment" thing.

The UK has become a very wealthy country over the post war years BECAUSE OF the EU and the guaranteed markets and opportunities it offered in a sheltered environment.
It wasn't the EU but globalisation that spread the divisions in wealth between "classes " of people. In or out that globalisation will still continue as long as countries trade an interact and the UK should be glad it will continue. That bye and large the British didn't take the opportunity to explore the opportunities outside their own country is not the fault of the organisation that offered the UK that chance.
Throwing out the baby with the bathwater never was IMO a very wise thing to do. But to think this was some sort of victory for a certain self identified class is not really what happened.
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14-11-2016, 01:39 PM
110

Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!

Originally Posted by Flicker ->
and I don't get this "stand against the establishment" thing.

The UK has become a very wealthy country over the post war years BECAUSE OF the EU and the guaranteed markets and opportunities it offered in a sheltered environment.
It wasn't the EU but globalisation that spread the divisions in wealth between "classes " of people. In or out that globalisation will still continue as long as countries trade an interact and the UK should be glad it will continue. That bye and large the British didn't take the opportunity to explore the opportunities outside their own country is not the fault of the organisation that offered the UK that chance.
Throwing out the baby with the bathwater never was IMO a very wise thing to do. But to think this was some sort of victory for a certain self identified class is not really what happened.
I would agree there, I am anti establishment through and through and I have spoken to people who voted to leave just because they thought it was a kick in the teeth for Cameron. Strange logic to me, I would rather we stayed in and sought to oust the Tories in 2020.
 
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