Re: Faith Schools: Time to scrap them?

OK "spanner throwing time" - I did ask puddle duck a question eons ago which she didn't answer and now she seems to have expired!

whilst I agree that faith studies is a form of indoctrination I disagree that is can be defined as 'abuse'

I have worked in the catholic education system at times in OZ - yes they even permeated here! they are often considered good schools of high achievement and do employ many staff who are not catholics themselves. However these personnel are asked to sign a contract of employment which states that they will support the catholic ethos and uphold its tennants what ever that means?

these non-catholic staff whilst sometimes taking part in certain religious ceremonies simple turn a blind eye or sometimes 'catch the flu' and can't attend!

Re: Faith Schools: Time to scrap them?

No doubt folk are grateful that Pope Pum has been fairly quiet.
Mainly because I have been here many times before and I recognize the futility of it all.
Only two points which I would like to comment upon.

Realist hit the nail o the head ! The very conditioning which we are arguing about is crystal clear in those adults here who see no problem pushing one narrow "ism" onto small children whilst denying them a fair and impartial overview.




I have four sons. Whilst an agnostic myself, I sought to ensure only that they knew of the diversity of beliefs.
Every second Sunday we would trot off to a different church, often lingering afterwards or going to a few of that church's kids' activities.
Those that I can remember visiting - and there were more - were, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, CofE, Roman Catholic, Seventh Day Adventist, Christian Science, Mormons, Salvation Army, Congregational, Lutherans ...and others.
Not once did I hear the "bible" mentioned other than as FACT.
Sermons were always littered with "texts" from "scripture" as the absolute authority.

I said little to the boys about my own views and always prefaced such brief chats with "I could be wrong .... ".
All four went to non-"faith" schools and all four have grown up to be moral, hardworking and successful adults.

Re: Faith Schools: Time to scrap them?

Must have been really interesting going to all those different churches, Pummy.

Re: Faith Schools: Time to scrap them?

Churches etc do teach as fact that's one reason I chose a silent church but that's not what I'm my experience happens in schools or most people's homes. And by time kids are 14/15 they have usually sorted out wheat from chaff anyway and made their own decisions.

Re: Faith Schools: Time to scrap them?

Julie, I respect your opinion enormously.
But that is not my experience - nor that of anybody I know.
I suspect that few families these days are really committed to any particular sect/cult/denomination.
For most, the whole subject of religion is probably rarely raised.

But, we are talking about the "others" - where the parents really are committed.
Prayers, grace, bible-readings and such at home,
religion dictating the choice of schools,
church and/or Sunday School every week,
the parents' religion dictating the kids' books, TV, movies, friends, youth activities etc etc etc.

" by time kids are 14/15 they have usually sorted out wheat from chaff anyway "
With that background, not a chance !

When they start to have doubts, they feel guilty.
They are at mental loggerheads with everyone who has ever been really close to them and respected.
This is a recipe for frustration, anger, confusion, rebellion, depression - even suicide.

Had they been presented only with a broad, unbiased overview from day one - no problems.
Only then could they freely choose their own path without inner turmoil.

Re: Faith Schools: Time to scrap them?

Silent church, Quakers are very quiet we sit in silence a lot. It's very individual we even have atheist members.


I get what you are saying pummy but it's not religion at fault that to me is parents failing a bit. But banning religion won't help i can't even see how it could be done.

Parents fail in many ways I don't know a perfect parent if I find one I'll let you know, so what can we do ? Take kids away ? Make parents take tests only the best can breed ?

Re: Faith Schools: Time to scrap them?

No I don't believe this in the slightest. At 14/15, kids are reaching the "difficult" age where they want control of their lives, want to push the boundaries of what they can and can not do and are generally starting to rebel against the parents. They haven't, in my experience, sorted any wheat from the chaff. They are already shouldering all of the programming and conditioning that school and home life gave them. Then on top of that their minds are assaulted daily by the media and TV that is purposely designed to engage people of that age. The pop groups, icons, purporting to do good things, pretending to be model upstanding people who are just out for publicity, earning £millions and exploiting dumb kids.

At age 14/15 kids are all in groups, have begun to see that people care about morals and behaviours and they begin to place themselves in camps. They say that they stand up for certain things, speak out against the exploitation of people and animals and the like, but at the same time they wander into local Starbucks outlets for hot chocolates piled with whipped cream. Their minds are still impressionable and they still haven't properly learned to reason, to evaluate and sift fact from fiction.

Their focus is more about fitting in with the crowd, not being seen to be a douchebag, being seen to dress similarly to others, fretting over whether others like you or not. It's an age group that is all about "I", the ego, what "I" want, how "I" look, what "I" can and can't do. The age of starting to rebel against the former parental dictates. The beginning of the longing to be 18 and be "free".

Kids are totally and horribly brainwashed from early years right the way up to 18 and beyond. You can take any one at random and likely find them constantly guzzling down cans of Red Bull and Monster energy drinks and colas and other fizzy drinks. They eat a ton of sh*t food. They aren't in the least bit educated in how the world really works. Many of them are little fatties, vastly overweight for their age having been poorly fed by their fatty parents in childhood and now having to face the really difficult task of serious weight loss.

These kids aren't in the least educated about how the world really works. They haven't a clue about sugar or the dangers of sweeteners. They haven't a clue about finances, about taxes, about insurance. They equally haven't a clue about psychological methods used to control people, methods used by con men, companies and churches.

In short, most of the real information they need to be able to deal with life and not get exploited and ripped off at every avenue, has not been given to them.

The most fundamental of them all, the ability to think, the importance of thinking, the confidence to do what you feel is right, the ability to reason with logic and be rational and objective, all not a part of the curriculum.

Hence many come out of the system as naïve imbeciles who are already hopelessly plugged into the "system", believing whatever "facts" have been drummed into them without question.

Re: Faith Schools: Time to scrap them?

That's what I meant about starting to sort out wheat from the chaff, they naturally rebel, look for other answers. Also I think many people remain impressionable for longer than others, but there is nothing anyone can do about that and having a religiously moral compass may actually save some from other influences.

It feels like you have no trust in kids at all they are enormously questioning and seek the truth for themselves. They may pretend for a while to keep parents happy but they don't keep it up long.

Re: Faith Schools: Time to scrap them?

Yes, but there's the difference between the RC church and the muslim religion.

Whereas the RC church used to be very formal and demanding of its members, they have progressed now to allowing far more freedom of choice, which is how it should be.

As I understand it, if you were brought up as a muslim you have no choice but to remain a muslim. Some have even been threatened with death for leaving the religion. Even so, I think perhaps some brave muslims might have managed to break free, but I suspect that they still live in fear of the consequences.

Re: Faith Schools: Time to scrap them?

But that's why a blanket statement about religion being abuse has caused such a problem for many of us who live with religion in our families and use religious based schools. We are not all the same.