16-10-2017, 02:47 PM
21
Re: May and Davis to travel to Brussels for urgent Brexit talks
Originally Posted by Tartlet
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It isn't only about trade though. It's about every aspect of the UK/EU relationship which has developed over decades and is embedded in our law and society. Citizens rights, various research and nuclear initiatives, security and intelligence co-operation and so on. The citizens rights issue is a good example of how the UK are making it difficult for the negotiations to move on. Right from the start the EU offered UK citizens living in the rest of the EU the same rights as EU citizens. No doubt with the reasonable exectation that the UK would reciprocate but we didn't and opted to play silly devils instead of getting that first hurdle out of the way.
As far as I know, we have offered the EU citizens living in this country the same rights as British people under British law. The EU are not satisfied with that as they want them to have the same rights as the EU citizens under European law, the ECJ . So in other words, they are expecting us to run a 2 tier law system, one for EU citizens and one for British citizens.
We have to remember the EU is not a country/Nation, although, they obviously want to be judging by Junkers ‘State of the Union’ speech, they are nothing more than a club/alliance/ organization/union, call what you like, who have introduced their own laws.
Ex-Pats live under the law of the country they are living in so why shouldn’t anyone wanting to come to this country, live under our British laws? If EU Nationals go to any other country outside of the EU they live under that country laws, not under EU law. After all our Ex-Pats don’t live under British law in Spain or Australia
16-10-2017, 04:19 PM
22
Re: May and Davis to travel to Brussels for urgent Brexit talks
The EU wants to make sure that their citizens retain the same rights after the date the UK withdraws as they do now. They seem to suspect, as do I, that UK citizen rights (such as employment rights) will begin to be eroded post Brexit.This document from last month sets out the points at issue but much of it is difficult for a lay person to understand.
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...ns__rights.pdf
16-10-2017, 04:56 PM
23
Re: May and Davis to travel to Brussels for urgent Brexit talks
Originally Posted by Freespirit
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As far as I know, we have offered the EU citizens living in this country the same rights as British people under British law. The EU are not satisfied with that as they want them to have the same rights as the EU citizens under European law, the ECJ . So in other words, they are expecting us to run a 2 tier law system, one for EU citizens and one for British citizens.We have to remember the EU is not a country/Nation, although, they obviously want to be judging by Junkers ‘State of the Union’ speech, they are nothing more than a club/alliance/ organization/union, call what you like, who have introduced their own laws.
Ex-Pats live under the law of the country they are living in so why shouldn’t anyone wanting to come to this country, live under our British laws? If EU Nationals go to any other country outside of the EU they live under that country laws, not under EU law. After all our Ex-Pats don’t live under British law in Spain or Australia
Unfortunately we did not offer the same rights and set about issuing leave notices under an obscure provision nobody had heard about.
This put EU Citizens in a worse situation than illegal immigrants.
That really was shooting ourselves in the foot.
16-10-2017, 05:03 PM
24
Re: May and Davis to travel to Brussels for urgent Brexit talks
Originally Posted by swimfeeders
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HiUnfortunately we did not offer the same rights and set about issuing leave notices under an obscure provision nobody had heard about.
This put EU Citizens in a worse situation than illegal immigrants.
That really was shooting ourselves in the foot.
16-10-2017, 05:15 PM
25
Re: May and Davis to travel to Brussels for urgent Brexit talks
Originally Posted by Purwell
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You don't know what you want so you insult me, must prove something to somebody.
Perhaps if you put your brain in gear before you open your gob, then perhaps you can prove to us you are capable of talking some common sense for a change.
Come on my friend.
I want to see the proof!
Cheers.
16-10-2017, 05:37 PM
26
Re: May and Davis to travel to Brussels for urgent Brexit talks
Originally Posted by Boozercruiser
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I don't think we need to teach you anything about how to insult people either Purwell.Perhaps if you put your brain in gear before you open your gob, then perhaps you can prove to us you are capable of talking some common sense for a change.
Come on my friend.
I want to see the proof!
Cheers.
16-10-2017, 06:28 PM
27
Re: May and Davis to travel to Brussels for urgent Brexit talks
Originally Posted by Tartlet
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The EU wants to make sure that their citizens retain the same rights after the date the UK withdraws as they do now. They seem to suspect, as do I, that UK citizen rights (such as employment rights) will begin to be eroded post Brexit.This document from last month sets out the points at issue but much of it is difficult for a lay person to understand.
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...ns__rights.pdf
My point is that post-Brexit, whether or not our government intends to erode UK citizens rights (such as employment rights, I do hope not) should have nothing to do with the EU.
Therefore, we cannot give EU citizens presently in this country their rights under EU law. We would be creating a two tier law system and tying the hands of our government and parliament to make any changes in the future. The EU just wants to keep controlling us after we have left.
As I said before, if EU Nationals move to Australia to live they do not retain their rights under EU Law, they live under Australian law.
16-10-2017, 08:41 PM
28
Re: May and Davis to travel to Brussels for urgent Brexit talks
Originally Posted by Tartlet
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The EU wants to make sure that their citizens retain the same rights after the date the UK withdraws as they do now. They seem to suspect, as do I, that UK citizen rights (such as employment rights) will begin to be eroded post Brexit.This document from last month sets out the points at issue but much of it is difficult for a lay person to understand.
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...ns__rights.pdf
Do they expect EU citizens living in Russia, The USA or Saudi Arabia, for example, to live under EU law or the laws of those individual countries??
If British Law is good enough for British citizens then it damn well out to be good enough for EU citizens.
Barnier/ Juncker et al can gtf!!
Btw there is no evidence whatsoever to think employment laws will be any different to what they are right now. That is just more Project Fear bollox!
16-10-2017, 08:48 PM
29
Re: May and Davis to travel to Brussels for urgent Brexit talks
Originally Posted by Freespirit
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My point is that post-Brexit, whether or not our government intends to erode UK citizens rights (such as employment rights, I do hope not) should have nothing to do with the EU. Therefore, we cannot give EU citizens presently in this country their rights under EU law. We would be creating a two tier law system and tying the hands of our government and parliament to make any changes in the future. The EU just wants to keep controlling us after we have left.
As I said before, if EU Nationals move to Australia to live they do not retain their rights under EU Law, they live under Australian law.
If our glorious leaders were to subject us to this, I can see us ending up with not two, but three legal systems running side by side: UK law, EU law and Sharia law.
How ridiculous! How can a country possibly run with three separate, and conflicting, legal systems? What's more, as you have said, this is just another means by which the EU hopes to continue its control of our country, and that must never happen.
16-10-2017, 09:13 PM
30
Re: May and Davis to travel to Brussels for urgent Brexit talks
Originally Posted by Freespirit
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Thank you for the document, I will read it later this evening. My point is that post-Brexit, whether or not our government intends to erode UK citizens rights (such as employment rights, I do hope not) should have nothing to do with the EU.
Therefore, we cannot give EU citizens presently in this country their rights under EU law. We would be creating a two tier law system and tying the hands of our government and parliament to make any changes in the future. The EU just wants to keep controlling us after we have left.
As I said before, if EU Nationals move to Australia to live they do not retain their rights under EU Law, they live under Australian law.
Your Australia example isn’t a good one because there has never been any kind of reciprocal agreement allowing the citizens of Australia free movement to the EU and vice versa. It’s an entirely different situation.
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