Join for free
Page 5 of 8 « First < 3 4 5 6 7 > Last »
JBR's Avatar
JBR
Chatterbox
JBR is offline
Cheshire, UK
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 32,785
JBR is male  JBR has posted at least 25 times and has been a member for 3 months or more 
 
26-12-2020, 05:02 PM
41

Re: Take a Good Hard Look in the Mirror Remoaners!

Originally Posted by Bread ->
To an extend but we are no longer are bound to the ECJ on our immigration policy ... which is where the problems came from. We could always deport our illegal immigrants but the process through the ECJ was so difficult it was almost impossible to do.

We are no longer tied to the ECJ at all (going on what has been talked about so far).
So we can now deport our illegal immigrants without interference from the ECHR?
Zaphod's Avatar
Zaphod
Senior Member
Zaphod is offline
Lincs UK
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 3,990
Zaphod is male  Zaphod has posted at least 25 times and has been a member for 3 months or more 
 
26-12-2020, 05:12 PM
42

Re: Take a Good Hard Look in the Mirror Remoaners!

Originally Posted by Cinderella ->
A good post, putting across your point of view without invective.
Without invective maybe, but still extremely flawed and biased.

The Swiss, the Norwegians and others are no less Europeans for not being members of the EU and to suggest that a prerequisite for peace and prosperity is EU membership is so obviously wrong that it is frankly mind-boggling in its' naivety.
Facts prove that the EU has comparatively been neither prosperous nor conducive to peace, and there are numerous examples of the latter and statistics for the former.

Everybody is entitled to an opinion but basing personal fears on such flawed perceptions is almost certain to lead to disappointment.
If facts deliberately being ignored is what leads to such flawed perceptions then the disappointed have only themselves to blame.

The rest of us will be moving on and making the most of new opportunities rather than bemoaning what might have been.
Zaphod's Avatar
Zaphod
Senior Member
Zaphod is offline
Lincs UK
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 3,990
Zaphod is male  Zaphod has posted at least 25 times and has been a member for 3 months or more 
 
26-12-2020, 05:21 PM
43

Re: Take a Good Hard Look in the Mirror Remoaners!

Originally Posted by Bread ->
If you look at the past 2 world wars, there was no political unity between any European country, but the UK came to the rescue all the same. In fact, in the 2nd World War, the UK was fighting Germany on its own for over a year - and it was actually Germany that was the aggressor on both occasions.

There is a lot of fear and anger in the 27 that the UK has left for this reason, that, while the UK was a member of the EU, should Germany try to occupy them again, the UK would always come to the rescue. Germany has been at it again for the past 40 years or so, but where it failed with military it is succeeding financially with the Euro and binding the 27 to it's interest rate base. This will continue to expand and with the introduction of mutualised debt and now Germany now is holding the Eurozone by the bollx as it has essentially become the Eurozones lender of last resort. Those debts will be called in at some point and when they do it will be in the form of land grabs by regionalisation, extra EU powers for Germany and removal of National Vetoes completely, leaving Germany to be the the only elected leaders and rulers of the EU 27.

Since it's conception the EU has steadily moved away from NATO by introducing it's own satellite communications (Gallileo), it's own digital policy on data sharing (GDPR) and now its common defence policy (or EU army if you like). With it, has come many policies intended to separate the UK from the USA as a consequence and to build its own joint defence programs such as Eurofighter back in the 80s. although this was a consequence of the Cold War, they are still in circulation, where only in the past couple of years, Germany bought 40 of the (defunct useless crap) a couple of years ago instead of the far superior F-35 from the USA. Tying EU countries to buy from EU countries when it comes to defence has been a policy in the making since the 80's and its only just around the corner in terms of it being finalised. We also saw it when the UK was prevented from buying USA Humvees and was forced to buy Italian Panthers, all wrapped up under single market rules and to prevent the UK aligning closer, militarily with the USA.

NATO and nuclear deterrents have been a far, far greater defence mechanism for countries than a political union ever has. To think the UK was "stronger together" as an EU member is simply not true. If that was the case the UK and the USA wouldn't be defending its borders as we do now with NATO. Look at how the EU has been aligning itself with the East, by implementing Huawei 5G, the belt and road project and Nord Stream 2.

We really do not want to be any part of that.
I have to agree.
So much so that - TBH - I find it baffling that anybody would want to remain a part of that in the knowledge of the huge number of such examples exist, only some of which have been commented-upon in posts like yours.

When even the Swiss and the Norwegians are expressing a desire to further diverge from the EU's approach surely the EUrophiles must recognise that there is something not right within the EU?
Sadly it would appear that there are still some pro-EU diehards who refuse to see what is right in front of their eyes.
Aerolor's Avatar
Aerolor
Chatterbox
Aerolor is offline
UK
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 9,380
Aerolor is female  Aerolor has posted at least 25 times and has been a member for 3 months or more 
 
26-12-2020, 11:02 PM
44

Re: Take a Good Hard Look in the Mirror Remoaners!

Originally Posted by Zaphod ->
Without invective maybe, but still extremely flawed and biased.

The Swiss, the Norwegians and others are no less Europeans for not being members of the EU and to suggest that a prerequisite for peace and prosperity is EU membership is so obviously wrong that it is frankly mind-boggling in its' naivety.
Facts prove that the EU has comparatively been neither prosperous nor conducive to peace, and there are numerous examples of the latter and statistics for the former.

Everybody is entitled to an opinion but basing personal fears on such flawed perceptions is almost certain to lead to disappointment.
If facts deliberately being ignored is what leads to such flawed perceptions then the disappointed have only themselves to blame.

The rest of us will be moving on and making the most of new opportunities rather than bemoaning what might have been.
I won't be moaning about what might have been Zaphod because I am pleased that a "deal" of this kind has been made, a deal which will allow both the UK and the EU to move on and, hopefully, prosper with an important amount of co-operation I don't think I ignore facts (if I am aware of them), but I do have concerns about a fractured Europe which does not pull together. Heaven forbid that there will ever be another European war as we have seen in the past and this thought certainly influences my feelings about the importance of being countries who can co-operate with each other. Neither Switzerland or Norway took part in WW1 and WW2, remaining as neutral countries (although I don't know how they did it). However, because they did not go through the fighting and suffering in the way the countries at war with each other did, maybe they find it easier to now remain apart from the rest of Europe who chose to operate under the EU. I don't know, I can only have an opinion and I perhaps there is a degree of naivety in my thinking - I am not a particularly political creature with comprehensive knowledge of what goes on. Anyway, as I said I am pleased we have this deal at last. Even though I would have liked to remain within the EU I think there is now a mutually workable agreement and I am happy to accept that.
JBR's Avatar
JBR
Chatterbox
JBR is offline
Cheshire, UK
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 32,785
JBR is male  JBR has posted at least 25 times and has been a member for 3 months or more 
 
26-12-2020, 11:17 PM
45

Re: Take a Good Hard Look in the Mirror Remoaners!

Originally Posted by Aerolor ->
I won't be moaning about what might have been Zaphod because I am pleased that a "deal" of this kind has been made, a deal which will allow both the UK and the EU to move on and, hopefully, prosper with an important amount of co-operation I don't think I ignore facts (if I am aware of them), but I do have concerns about a fractured Europe which does not pull together. Heaven forbid that there will ever be another European war as we have seen in the past and this thought certainly influences my feelings about the importance of being countries who can co-operate with each other. Neither Switzerland or Norway took part in WW1 and WW2, remaining as neutral countries (although I don't know how they did it). However, because they did not go through the fighting and suffering in the way the countries at war with each other did, maybe they find it easier to now remain apart from the rest of Europe who chose to operate under the EU. I don't know, I can only have an opinion and I perhaps there is a degree of naivety in my thinking - I am not a particularly political creature with comprehensive knowledge of what goes on. Anyway, as I said I am pleased we have this deal at last. Even though I would have liked to remain within the EU I think there is now a mutually workable agreement and I am happy to accept that.
I must correct you on one point. Norway was not a neutral country; it was invaded by Nazi Germany.

Sweden was an independent country, like Switzerland. This time, though, Sweden has been conquered, peaceably of course.
spitfire
Chatterbox
spitfire is offline
Warwickshire
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 29,878
spitfire is male  spitfire has posted at least 25 times and has been a member for 3 months or more 
 
26-12-2020, 11:33 PM
46

Re: Take a Good Hard Look in the Mirror Remoaners!

Originally Posted by Aerolor ->
No JBR.I believe there are other reasons why many people believe we should remain part of the European Union.
For myself I firmly believe that because we are undeniably Europeans (our blood and ancestry is so intertwined) and because we are in such close proximity to the rest of Europe,it is essential to our future wellbeing that we remain. There will always be bickering between countries within the EU, but the important thing is that together we are all in a much stronger position than we would be separated. The world is full of threats to our security and well-being -you only have to look at China and other hugely populated countries which are developing at a rapid rate. Who is to say how these countries will behave in the future. We may well need to defend ourselves and together we are far stronger than alone. There is strength in numbers if war is a threat.
I don't wish to feel like this but I am not going to turn a blind eye to the possibility and hope it will never happen. Economics aside (although I think our economic fortunes are better in the EU) this is why I believe we should stay together
I think we have put ourselves in a very vulnerable position all ways by removing ourselves. As I said in another post, time will tell, and I probably won't be around long enough. However, I do worry for my children and grandchildren who will inherit the results of our actions.
This might sound rubbish to you (and possibly others) but it how I feel about leaving the EU.
What about the Wars?
Bread's Avatar
Bread
Chatterbox
Bread is offline
Sudbury, United Kingdom
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 10,656
Bread is male  Bread has posted at least 25 times and has been a member for 3 months or more 
 
26-12-2020, 11:59 PM
47

Re: Take a Good Hard Look in the Mirror Remoaners!

Originally Posted by JBR ->
So we can now deport our illegal immigrants without interference from the ECHR?

It was the ECJ that was the problem
JBR's Avatar
JBR
Chatterbox
JBR is offline
Cheshire, UK
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 32,785
JBR is male  JBR has posted at least 25 times and has been a member for 3 months or more 
 
27-12-2020, 12:26 AM
48

Re: Take a Good Hard Look in the Mirror Remoaners!

Originally Posted by Bread ->
It was the ECJ that was the problem
I still maintain that the ECHR will continue to support our do-gooders as they push for our accepting the vermin.
Tedc's Avatar
Tedc
Senior Member
Tedc is offline
Berkshire, UK
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,872
Tedc is male  Tedc has posted at least 25 times and has been a member for 3 months or more 
 
27-12-2020, 11:37 AM
49

Re: Take a Good Hard Look in the Mirror Remoaners!

Originally Posted by Bread ->
I've only read briefly some of the trade agreement with the EU but if it is good as the government claim, I see no benefit of EU membership at all anymore.
And for those who argue that we, in the UK, are, basically, Europeans, and should stay with the EU, you have to look at which other Countries might well be of the same sort of mix.

How about The USA, Oz, NZ, etc?
Bread's Avatar
Bread
Chatterbox
Bread is offline
Sudbury, United Kingdom
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 10,656
Bread is male  Bread has posted at least 25 times and has been a member for 3 months or more 
 
27-12-2020, 12:10 PM
50

Re: Take a Good Hard Look in the Mirror Remoaners!

Originally Posted by Tedc ->
And for those who argue that we, in the UK, are, basically, Europeans, and should stay with the EU, you have to look at which other Countries might well be of the same sort of mix.

How about The USA, Oz, NZ, etc?

Spot on Ted !
 
Page 5 of 8 « First < 3 4 5 6 7 > Last »



© Copyright 2009, Over50sForum   Contact Us | Over 50s Forum! | Archive | Privacy Statement | Terms of Use | Top

Powered by vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.