22-03-2021, 12:13 AM
51
Re: The Vindictive Nastiness if the EU
Originally Posted by Donkeyman
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You've lost me there Cinderella ??" we are were we are" ??
Oh! it's ok, l think lve got it?
Sorry!
Donkeyman! 👍👍
What matters is where we go next.
22-03-2021, 09:32 AM
52
Re: The Vindictive Nastiness if the EU
Originally Posted by Bread
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I think that fisheries and Ireland were the price he was willing to pay. He needs to make some big decisions soon or he will lose a lot of support.
The vaccine success alone certainly won't be enough.
Action on the loose ends of Brexit is a must.
22-03-2021, 12:40 PM
53
Re: The Vindictive Nastiness if the EU
Originally Posted by Banchory
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But all the leading advocates of Brexit claimed we held all the cards and Boris was adamant we could have our cake and eat it. The reality is that we were alway negotiating from a position of weakness and Brexit was an ill thought out project that would only make us poorer and less relevant on the world stage. Frost was an inexperienced chancer who got rolled over by a far more experienced EU team and Boris losing his nerve at the 11th hour didn’t help either.
Throwing our toys out of the pram now will only make matters worse as we are heavily reliant on trade with the EU with accounts for somewhere around 40% of our exports (43% in 2019) whereas EU exports to the UK only amount to less than 7% of their total (including internal trading)
We would not win a trade dispute
Originally Posted by Banchory
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Johnson and Frost were even worse. Mays big mistake was triggering Article 50 before understanding all the implications and nuances of leaving.However, no matter who did what and how things were done we were always destined to be negotiating from a position of weakness given the significant difference in size of economies and the UK’s lack of negotiating capability which has been plainly evident throughout
Her biggest mistake was not insisting on a twin track approach to negotiations. The WA and Trade negotiations could have been carried out simultaneously. If I'm not mistaken Article 50 allows for this by being silent on the matter. Had this approach been taken it would have strengthened our hand considerably and would have avoided all the nonsense over the Irish Backstop, and the end of her premiership.
By negotiating the divorce bill and EU citizens rights in UK, at the same time as a trade deal, then I think we would have been in a far better position than we are now. Also, we would have got there quicker. So, yes, she messed up Brexit but also messed up her Premiership.
We already had a trade deal with the EU so renegotiating a new one, where a lot of the boxes had already been ticked, should have been easy. EU made it difficult.
22-03-2021, 12:46 PM
54
Re: The Vindictive Nastiness if the EU
Originally Posted by Takahashi
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How were Johnson and Frost worse?Her biggest mistake was not insisting on a twin track approach to negotiations. The WA and Trade negotiations could have been carried out simultaneously. If I'm not mistaken Article 50 allows for this by being silent on the matter. Had this approach been taken it would have strengthened our hand considerably and would have avoided all the nonsense over the Irish Backstop, and the end of her premiership.
By negotiating the divorce bill and EU citizens rights in UK, at the same time as a trade deal, then I think we would have been in a far better position than we are now. Also, we would have got there quicker. So, yes, she messed up Brexit but also messed up her Premiership.
In fact, she was an unmitigated disaster both as HS and PM. Some say even worse than BLiar.
In fact, as far as I'm concerned, we haven't had a strong and beneficial PM since Maggie Thatcher.
22-03-2021, 01:21 PM
56
Re: The Vindictive Nastiness if the EU
Originally Posted by Takahashi
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Wouldn't disagree with you there. Car and phone sorted?
I have tried everything that everyone has suggested and still receiving the 'cannot connect' message.
I think I'll have to give up on that unless, perhaps when the lockdown has been eased, I might ask the outlet where we bought the car to have a go at it.
22-03-2021, 02:48 PM
57
Re: The Vindictive Nastiness if the EU
Originally Posted by Zaphod
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Agreed wholeheartedly.The vaccine success alone certainly won't be enough.
Action on the loose ends of Brexit is a must.
what l have long been saying on this forum for quite a long time
now ,Zaphod ??
Donkeyman! 😀😀😀
22-03-2021, 03:02 PM
58
Re: The Vindictive Nastiness if the EU
Originally Posted by Donkeyman
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Do l take it that your last sentence of yours means that you agree with what l have long been saying on this forum for quite a long time
now ,Zaphod ??
Donkeyman! 😀😀😀
Just because I like Heinz tomato sauce doesn't mean that I like all Heinz products or agree with their ethics.
Equally just because I think that firm actions are needed in some areas regarding Brexit it does not mean that I agree with anything else you personally allege you have said, and particularly when you are deliberately reticent about divulging exactly what those might be.
HTH.
23-03-2021, 07:39 AM
59
Re: The Vindictive Nastiness if the EU
Originally Posted by Takahashi
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How were Johnson and Frost worse?Her biggest mistake was not insisting on a twin track approach to negotiations. The WA and Trade negotiations could have been carried out simultaneously. If I'm not mistaken Article 50 allows for this by being silent on the matter. Had this approach been taken it would have strengthened our hand considerably and would have avoided all the nonsense over the Irish Backstop, and the end of her premiership.
By negotiating the divorce bill and EU citizens rights in UK, at the same time as a trade deal, then I think we would have been in a far better position than we are now. Also, we would have got there quicker. So, yes, she messed up Brexit but also messed up her Premiership.
We already had a trade deal with the EU so renegotiating a new one, where a lot of the boxes had already been ticked, should have been easy. EU made it difficult.
We now have a NI GFI/hard border conundrum that only the reunification of Ireland can truly solve, non tariff trade barriers that are decimating our food and drinks industry and increasing costs, supply delay and uncertainty when we haven’t yet implemented full customs checks.
TM was woefully naive in immediately invoking Article 50 before undertaking analysis, assessments and consideration of all the facts and implications and her successor BJ and his cabinet of fools wedded to the inane ERG dogma of WTO is better than EU membership have been totally outmanoeuvred by the EU. The PG Tips chimps could have done a better job.
Using people and their rights as a bargaining tool on trade negotiations is ethically questionable and the raising of the subject only served to show just how weak our bargaining position was.
23-03-2021, 10:23 AM
60
Re: The Vindictive Nastiness if the EU
Originally Posted by Banchory
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It was never going to be easy. Why would the EU agree a trade deal that was anywhere near as lucrative as being a member? We would be treated as a third country and the well seasoned EU negotiators were always going to seek the most advantageous outcome for the EU and certainly not compromise the benefits of being a member. Anyone who believed otherwise clearly failed to understand the implications of Brexit and our relationship with the EU or fell for “we can have our cake and eat it” and “we hold all the card” linesWe now have a NI GFI/hard border conundrum that only the reunification of Ireland can truly solve, non tariff trade barriers that are decimating our food and drinks industry and increasing costs, supply delay and uncertainty when we haven’t yet implemented full customs checks.
TM was woefully naive in immediately invoking Article 50 before undertaking analysis, assessments and consideration of all the facts and implications and her successor BJ and his cabinet of fools wedded to the inane ERG dogma of WTO is better than EU membership have been totally outmanoeuvred by the EU. The PG Tips chimps could have done a better job.
Using people and their rights as a bargaining tool on trade negotiations is ethically questionable and the raising of the subject only served to show just how weak our bargaining position was.
1. Obtaining a trade agreement as good as, or better than the one we already had, wasn't something I ever thought realistic. However, obtaining a trade agreement with the EU should have been relatively simple. They had previously offered a "Canada" style deal but then changed the goalposts and said we were geographically too close for that. We already had a trade agreement them and, if a new agreement had been discussed at the same time as the money, EU citizens rights, and the border with Ireland then it would have been easier to achieve. I think that's obvious isn't it?
2. If you think that Brexit brings the unification of Ireland closer then you are either a fool or a dreamer. No Irish Premier in my lifetime has ever advocated a united Ireland. Neither will they do so until, and maybe not even then, NI is united first. That ain't happening anytime soon.
ROI owe the EU something like €213 billion. Add on the cost of administering a peaceful NI - it costs the UK over €12 billion annually - and you have a good reason why Irish taxpayers would think twice about taking on that hot potato, especially as it would likely mean the resurgence of terrorism from the Unionist community, initially, and then the Provos to "protect the Catholics".
3. I didn't say we could use people's rights as bargaining chips - I said everything could have been discussed simultaneously. I think it best if we leave the ethical questions with the EU for the time being. They do seem to be fashionable with them at this moment in time.
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