Re: Africa

Blimey!!!! I don't know where to begin on this one, so maybe I'll just scratch the surface.

For starters lets get the geography correct Jonsey. Rhodesia was/is not South Africa never has been - it is a landlocked country located in the Southern part of the continent of Africa. Originally Rhodesia comprised North and South Rhodesia. Northern Rhodesia became Zambia and Southern Rhodesia became Zimbabwe - quite different from South Africa which has always remained the country of South Africa. That is where we are today.

I don't know where the cat fits into illegal immigration and repatriation and it is not apppropriate to refer to people as "tree huggers and the blue rinse brigade" - These are just names used to disparage, insult and cover up an unfortunate lack of knowledge.
It is a mistake to lump African peoples together and casually say they "have a general lack of interet in trying to help themsellves" and I am staggered by the ignorance.
I really could write a book on this, but it probably would make not an iota of difference to those who just "spout" an unqualified opinion, cannot see and make little attempt to understand.
There has been and still is much civil unrest and revolution in Africa, along with genocide and attrocities on a scale you would not comprehend - famine and deprivation is frequently the result. However, I won't go further or I will be here all day.

On a final note a person who thinks China has nothing to do with us must really be living in cloud cuckoo land. Just about everything we touch these days has something to do with China. China also has historically had quite a bit to do with Africa and still has - but that's another story.

Africa is a fascinating and very resource rich continent, complicated with a history longer than our own and with far more problems. So vastly diverse and complicated that it takes some comprehending - it would be very unwise to dismis Africa as backward and irrelevant to our "little" lives here.

PS - I am not a tree hugger or part of the blue rinse brigade, although a blue rinse can look quite attractive when you have a bit of gray.

Re: Africa

I would love a blue rinse actually I would love to have some hair, no I wouldn't it would cost me money.
I am also a tree hugger I suppose!
I think I am concerned about our environment, aren't you?
We should be after the terrible year we have had with all this extreme weather.

Re: Africa

I don't wish to be pedantic but I did mention --South Africa --- Rhodesia --- Kenya etc as SEPERATE countries ruled by the white man >>> and i quote >>>>>

It's funny though the South Africa --- Rhodesia( as was) --- Kenya ----and many other "white ruled" African countries were well organisd, well run and most importantly, fiscally sound >>> end of quote.



In trying to explain a "tree hugger" or a member of the "blue rinse brigade" I used the analogy of an illegal immigrants reason for not wanting to be deported, and the stupidity of those prunes that say their civil rights etc will be abused if they are sent back to their country of origin by using stupid reasons such as a cats trauma. Is that is "lack of of knowledge", or are you implying --ignorance ?? -- in that case I am an ignoramus >>> and I quote >>>>>>

I don't know where the cat fits into illegal immigration and repatriation and it is not apppropriate to refer to people as "tree huggers and the blue rinse brigade" - These are just names used to disparage, insult and cover up an unfortunate lack of knowledge>>> end of quote.

There are of course exceptions to every rule and when GENERALISING it is easy to pick someone up and call them ignorant, but I notice you don't give me an answer to the statement I made, but then I am an ignoramus,>>>> and I quote >>>>>>>>It is a mistake to lump African peoples together and casually say they "have a general lack of interet in trying to help themsellves" and I am staggered by the ignorance. >>>>>>>>>>>>> end of quote.

Being the ignoramus I am I couldn't possibly write a book on the subject as I only get my opnions from the media, you know, those EDUCATED people that go to Africa and see BOTH sides of the coin, and me, well, I can only sit --look and learn. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And i quote >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.I really could write a book on this, but it probably would make not an iota of difference to those who just "spout" an unqualified opinion, cannot see and make little attempt to understand >>> end of quote.


Excuse my ignorance, but apart from the Mau Mau uprising in Kenya, (as was, and is seperate from South Africa) haven't all these atrocities arisen since thes African countries were granted their independance, to an ignoramus such as I that would imply to me that those who took over power were sadly lacking in the interests of their people, I mean, for example, Ive never heard of northern uk labourite freedom fighters storming south to slay the Tory incumbants . And I quote >>>>>>>>>>>>>There has been and still is much civil unrest and revolution in Africa, along with genocide and attrocities on a scale you would not comprehend - famine and deprivation is frequently the result. However, I won't go further or I will be here all day>>>> end of quote.

How the Chinese choose to run their country is nothing to do with us, just because it doesn't conform to your ideals is totally irrelevant, what their influences might be regarding Africa etc are of no concern to us, the only time it becomes a reason to interfere is when it becomes a reason of nationl security,>>>>>>> And I quote >>>>>>>>>.On a final note a person who thinks China has nothing to do with us must really be living in cloud cuckoo land. Just about everything we touch these days has something to do with China >>>>>>>>>> end of quote.


Nobody is denying the beauty /recources/history/ but until those recources etc are "exploited and brought to the front and the rewards used to improve the indigenous Africans lot it will always be regarded as a backward third world continent who's peoples are too lazy or ignorant to help themseves. >>>> and i quote >>>>>>>Africa is a fascinating and very resource rich continent, complicated with a history longer than our own and with far more problems. So vastly diverse and complicated that it takes some comprehending - it would be very unwise to dismis Africa as backward and irrelevant to our "little" lives here.

Re: Africa

I am presuming you mean the adverts where they try and tug at your heart strings saying little baby Johhny is going to die if you don't give £2 a month.
These adverts make me angry as while I am willing to help anyone I can, I have to question why these families just keep giving birth to children they know will starve to death because they can't feed them.
Money should be spent on providing birth control, that even they must see will stop the cruel slow death of their children from starvation, slowly bring down the population to what they can sustain themselves.
I know there is a lot of rape etc in these countries but birth control would at least stop unwanted children too.
Until this is done then its going to be a never ending problem where more and more money is going to be wanted for the evergrowing amount of children born to die.

Re: Africa

I have a feeling that this discussion could become very heated and prejudiced - and it is not my intention or necessity to try to convert someone from their outlook or beliefs. You keep yours and I'll keep mine.

Re: Africa

I have a feeling that this discussion could become very heated and prejudiced - and it is not my intention or necessity to try to convert someone from their outlook or beliefs. You keep yours and I'll keep mine. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

With no disrespect intended, isn't that a case of burying ones head in the sand.

From what I have read and typed on this discussion there has not been , in my humble opinion, anyone trying to 'convert" nor to to be predudiced,.The responses I have recieved I have consdered to be very reasoned and well thought out, ok a little rancour has slipped in here and there but isn't that what a forum is all about, people, all with differing views, fighting their corner, and at the end of it agreeing to disagree??.

Re: Africa

Wow, some of you people have too much time on your hands...some of the replies are more like essays....

My own opinion is that generally the rulers of the African countries don't give a hoot for their people. If they did then things could improve substantially.....

Re: Africa

Plantman,

I should take lessons in your succinctness, thats what Ive benn trying to say all along.

Re: Africa

I feel I can give a fair opinion here having lived in Kenya for some years, in fact we moved from Kenya to Spain.

One of the biggest problems in Africa is the people who live away from the main towns and cities, they live as they always have done, and no doubt always will do. In many of these bush regions education is very poor or none existant. The idea behind having so many children is that the more children you have the more there are to take care of you when you are old. Unfortunately of course this simply leads to more generations of uneducated people who will never have any hope of employment, it's a vicious circle, more and more children, more and more mouths to feed, more and more to clothe etc etc.

We once visited a school in a very remote region, many of the children had ailments and injuries. The headmaster of the school told us, and this is what he said, "you people give your money to organisations such as Save the Children, they use it to buy new vehicles but they don't want to damage their vehicles coming to these remote places. We are supposed to get a visit every year to check the childrens health, vaccinate them etc, we haven't had a visit for over 5 years".

You don't see Africa when you holiday there, you may see a local village where the tour operators have paid the headman to put on a show, but that is all. You don't see the corruption at every level, from the top to the very bottom. You don't suffer the heat, humidity and mosquitoes when the power goes off, hotel generators kick in and the majority of the local people that we know don't even have a naked light bulb, they simply can't afford it. The average wage for a waiter in a hotel is less than £1 a day. Many children don't go to school, oh they can, primary school education is free but the uniforms etc are not. Therefore if you can send your child out to smile and beg from tourists, who are quite happy mostly to give the child a couple of pounds, then your child can earn you a better living than you can possible earn. The average wage for a maid/cleaner/cook is around 3,000 shillings a month (£30), often less. We employed an askari at night (guard), he worked from 6 p.m. to 6 a.m. we paid him 4500 shillings a month, which was much more than he had ever earnt anywhere else, we also paid him for a day off each week, which is something that just doesn't happen in most employment there.

I can't see any drastic changes in the near future for Africa, the more you give the more they want and these days even the beach boys are fussy, they don't want your old shoes and tee shirts, they want designer gear !

As for giving money and aid to African countries, best forget it, the people who need it never ever see it and never ever benefit from it. Only the top people and their families and close friends benefit from such things.

Re: Africa

Love it Annie, I totally agree with you. The government should allow 1 child per family and then they get the chop!

Was it Japan they made a rule that if you had more than two children they cut your wages? I realise it's not quite the same in Africa but maybe the some of the donations could be used for sterlisation/vasectomy.