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JBR
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Cheshire, UK
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21-11-2020, 02:39 PM
41

Re: Fossil Fuel ending.

Originally Posted by Baz46 ->
Perhaps the government are already realising this when there is talk of bringing in 'road pricing', something that has been attempted for the last 56 years, according to the news item on the link below.

The lost tax as more electric vehicles are used means less revenue from fuel tax, that has to come from some other source, perhaps from 'road pricing'.

Edmund King, president of the AA, said that while electric vehicles were good for the environment, they are less so for the Exchequer.

He said: “The Government can’t afford to lose £40bn from fuel duty and car tax when the electric revolution arrives."


https://www.itv.com/news/2020-11-16/...llion-tax-hole
Ah yes. Toll roads.

Nothing new there, of course. Centuries ago we had turnpikes and there was a great outcry about them, apparently.

If they do decide to bring in toll roads throughout the country, presumably they will charge ALL motorists and not only the electrified ones, thus charging petrol and diesel drivers twice. That would tend to dictate even further that we must all ditch our present vehicles.

I'm going to get a bicycle. They charge bicycle users nothing, not even insurance, and red traffic lights? What are they?
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Baz46
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Somewhere rural 'out in the sticks', UK
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21-11-2020, 03:18 PM
42

Re: Fossil Fuel ending.

Originally Posted by JBR ->
Ah yes. Toll roads.

Nothing new there, of course. Centuries ago we had turnpikes and there was a great outcry about them, apparently.

If they do decide to bring in toll roads throughout the country, presumably they will charge ALL motorists and not only the electrified ones, thus charging petrol and diesel drivers twice. That would tend to dictate even further that we must all ditch our present vehicles.

I'm going to get a bicycle. They charge bicycle users nothing, not even insurance, and red traffic lights? What are they?
That could be the case, although with having to have charge points for electric vehicles that is where the 'road pricing' could be taken as they now do with petrol and diesel, taxed on the fuel purchased at filling stations.

All this new technology may prove disastrous for the motorist when it comes to paying taxes to use a vehicle, but a boon for the government. They know where we are, how many miles we do in a year, whether vehicle excise has been paid, if we have MoT and insurance, etc., etc.

As soon as it's realised there is a shortfall of tax and many people are reverting to bicycles, those too could be taxed. There is no way out I don't reckon. But how about those electric scooters? They are used out here in the rural sticks to get around, plenty of them are seen in the country lanes around where I live.
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21-11-2020, 03:47 PM
43

Re: Fossil Fuel ending.

Originally Posted by Donkeyman ->
Oh yes , l remember the Issetta very well, l rode 10 miles on the back
" Bumper" of my mates one night , cant say l thought much of it?
Too dangerous and strenuous for my liking !!
I also know about motorbike and sidecars as l drove a Vincent
Rapide and Jet 80 sports outfit to Athens and back again long ago !!
So l am well used to the handling characterisrics of such a beast?
And l cant see them entering into general usage ??
You still have not answered my query about heat pump use in
congested cities ??
I am still chuckling slightly !!

Donkeyman! 👍😀👍
Actually I did reply about use of heat pumps in an urban setting. Heat exchangers will be the same as are already used in other cities - heat exchanger draws heat from the open air rather than from the earth. The gases used are a different mix from ordinary 'fridges or air cons and work to a lower temperature.

Motor bikes? A question of affordability apart from anything else. In any case there are far too many cars on the road than are needed as it is.

We are facing a brand new world which means a huge change with what HAS to be a new normal. It will be very different from what we have become acquainted with but that will HAVE to change. TINA.
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21-11-2020, 03:54 PM
44

Re: Fossil Fuel ending.

The Bristol Channel is only a short distance from my home. At about 10m, it has the second highest tidal rise and fall in the world with the potential to generate up to 5% of the UK mainland's power requirements if properly harnessed.

There has been talk of a Severn Barrage with water turbines built in and a roadway on top.
The latest idea is a tidal lagoon or lagoons with tidal water turbines.
The tidal flow would generate power for all but about two hours a day. Battery or kinetic energy (water) storage, or both could be used to fill that two hour gap.

Micro generation in homes could be expanded but is limited to 5kW per home to reduce problems with overloading the national electrical grid.
We have two solar arrays on the roof with a total rating of 4kW to maximise the feed in tariff payments, so we have 1kW to spare. I looked into battery storage but at the time it was too expensive to make it worthwhile when comparing the break even point with my life expectancy.
With advancing technology it will hopefully be worthwhile at some point.

We also have a stream running in a 1m culvert under the edge of our property. A small water turbine could easily generate another 1kW, but again the cost at the moment is prohibitive. If the cost reduces then I would consider a turbine installation and battery storage, even if it the storage was only to power my workshop, and garage where we have a fridge and freezer.

The solar panels give us a small saving on electricity, plus a small income from power exported, but by far the biggest earner is the original feed in tariff.
Gradually this has been reduced for new installations to the point that solar panels are not as attractive for home installations as they used to be, even though the initial outlay is much reduced compared to 10 years ago.

There is talk about grants for further insulation, but will only effect older homes. Our house has been insulated to within a centimetre of its life, so there is no advantage to us, but hopefully it will help others.

The thing that would help us the most is either reducing the cost of battery storage or grants/assistance with the overall cost of the installation. The same applies to the limited number of people who can use water power to generate electrickery.
We could install a small wind turbine as well or instead of a water turbine, but again it's a major outlay without financial assistance, and we would still be limited by the current 5kW micro-generation power limit.

If the government wants to eliminate the use of fossil fuels it will have to go some. Encouraging more micro-generation would help as long as there was a major take-up, which in turn would be directly affected by the total installation costs and break even point.


I have heard that my former employer is currently working on a hybrid jet engine. Conventional fuel would be used for take-off then it would switch to electrickery to drive the main fan.

Earlier technology was to have a generator driven by a small jet engine, with electric motors driving propellers.
This is similar to the technology used to power ships for several decades, and railway locomotives long before that.

A lot of the basic technology appears to exist, but it must be scaled up, made more efficient, and the cost reduced.

Going fossil fuel free is definitely possible, but my personal opinion is it won't be done in the timescales the government are currently spouting.
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Tedc
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Berkshire, UK
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21-11-2020, 04:13 PM
45

Re: Fossil Fuel ending.

Originally Posted by Mups ->
Todger, what's this TINA you keep saying about?
Think I know All!
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21-11-2020, 04:15 PM
46

Re: Fossil Fuel ending.

When China, and some others, give it some real attention, I'll stop using my little motor!

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The Artful Todger
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Suffolk UK
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21-11-2020, 04:20 PM
47

Re: Fossil Fuel ending.

Originally Posted by Fruitcake ->
The Bristol Channel is only a short distance from my home. At about 10m, it has the second highest tidal rise and fall in the world with the potential to generate up to 5% of the UK mainland's power requirements if properly harnessed.

There has been talk of a Severn Barrage with water turbines built in and a roadway on top.
The latest idea is a tidal lagoon or lagoons with tidal water turbines.
The tidal flow would generate power for all but about two hours a day. Battery or kinetic energy (water) storage, or both could be used to fill that two hour gap.

Micro generation in homes could be expanded but is limited to 5kW per home to reduce problems with overloading the national electrical grid.
We have two solar arrays on the roof with a total rating of 4kW to maximise the feed in tariff payments, so we have 1kW to spare. I looked into battery storage but at the time it was too expensive to make it worthwhile when comparing the break even point with my life expectancy.
With advancing technology it will hopefully be worthwhile at some point.

We also have a stream running in a 1m culvert under the edge of our property. A small water turbine could easily generate another 1kW, but again the cost at the moment is prohibitive. If the cost reduces then I would consider a turbine installation and battery storage, even if it the storage was only to power my workshop, and garage where we have a fridge and freezer.

The solar panels give us a small saving on electricity, plus a small income from power exported, but by far the biggest earner is the original feed in tariff.
Gradually this has been reduced for new installations to the point that solar panels are not as attractive for home installations as they used to be, even though the initial outlay is much reduced compared to 10 years ago.

There is talk about grants for further insulation, but will only effect older homes. Our house has been insulated to within a centimetre of its life, so there is no advantage to us, but hopefully it will help others.

The thing that would help us the most is either reducing the cost of battery storage or grants/assistance with the overall cost of the installation. The same applies to the limited number of people who can use water power to generate electrickery.
We could install a small wind turbine as well or instead of a water turbine, but again it's a major outlay without financial assistance, and we would still be limited by the current 5kW micro-generation power limit.

If the government wants to eliminate the use of fossil fuels it will have to go some. Encouraging more micro-generation would help as long as there was a major take-up, which in turn would be directly affected by the total installation costs and break even point.


I have heard that my former employer is currently working on a hybrid jet engine. Conventional fuel would be used for take-off then it would switch to electrickery to drive the main fan.

Earlier technology was to have a generator driven by a small jet engine, with electric motors driving propellers.
This is similar to the technology used to power ships for several decades, and railway locomotives long before that.

A lot of the basic technology appears to exist, but it must be scaled up, made more efficient, and the cost reduced.

Going fossil fuel free is definitely possible, but my personal opinion is it won't be done in the timescales the government are currently spouting.
With the projected load there is no way that renewables could meet the projected needs.

Jet engines driving electric generators? No. Jet fuel is a hydrocarbon. Fuel cells driving electric motors - yes.


The bottom line is that energy use must be cut considerably. That means a huge change to lifestyle. Our profligate energy use HAS to end. And it will.
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21-11-2020, 05:01 PM
48

Re: Fossil Fuel ending.

Originally Posted by Fruitcake ->
The Bristol Channel is only a short distance from my home. At about 10m, it has the second highest tidal rise and fall in the world with the potential to generate up to 5% of the UK mainland's power requirements if properly harnessed.
I quite like idea of the Severn Bore. As you say, it could be harnessed. One problem, of course, is variation of the cycles. The interval between peaks and troughs. As we humans, we work on the 24 cycle.

Conventional power stations, as a rule, are not quite as flexible.
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Tachyon
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21-11-2020, 10:50 PM
49

Re: Fossil Fuel ending.

They might take a LONG time replacing all the gas systems in my area. It's heavily urbanised and gas heating systems are widespread.
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The Artful Todger
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Suffolk UK
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21-11-2020, 10:54 PM
50

Re: Fossil Fuel ending.

Originally Posted by Tedc ->
Think I know All!
Like Mrs Thatcher used to say "There Is No Alternative" as a result she became known in certain circles as TINA.
 
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