Re: Extinction the facts

Well said Tiffs .
I have always believed we should PAY countries like Brazil to preserve the rainforest .
Instead vast ranches have made fortunes for their owners through the destruction of the rainforest .

Think Dewhurst butchers ( owned by the Queens cousin ) who has / had vast tracts of land in Brazil and Australia .

Re: Extinction the facts

Please note: The vast forest fires in the American west, and the destruction of thousands of homes and businesses is certainly not because of greed. Every year these fires are mostly started by lightening strikes.

In any event, I seriously doubt that any power can force Brazil to stop burning the rain forests. Yes, some of it is perhaps caused by greed, but I suspect that much of it is caused by small-time would-be farmers hoping to make a living for his family.

I am quite certain that the overwhelming amount of greenhouse gasses are caused by Joe and Martha Citizen. What would you have them do ? Carry their laundry to the river and beat their dirty clothing on a rock ? How about the little old lady who looks forward to her favorite TV show and enjoying a cuppa tea. Maybe she could pedal a stationary bicycle which powers her TV ? What would you have me give up in my old age? Maybe I could wash my dishes with cold water ? Take cold showers ?

Seriously, I can't picture people living in hand dug caves and scavaging for roots and berries. Ultimately, that is what end-of-worlders are suggesting.

Re: Extinction the facts

Some fires are started deliberately.
The deforesting is mostly done by big business who plant palm oil where the forests that the Orangutans live were, so they have nowhere else to go.
Small farmers would not have that sort of impact on the forests.

Re: Extinction the facts

A few farmers would certain not cause much problem but hundreds of million of farmers have a HUGE impact.

In any event, as I've said before, I seriously doubt that any power on earth can stop people from trying to increase their wealth. It's human nature to try and live the best they possibly can.

Let's suppose that I was one of those ultra-greedy men and I wanted to buy up vast tracts of rain forest, burn it to the ground, and I wanted to plant palms for palm oil. Explain to me how you could ever stop me? All I would have to do is to grease a few politicians pockets and I'd be home free.

It seems to me that if enough people gather together to save Orangutans from extinction they could easily buy up several thousand hectares of jungle land, fence it off and transplant Orangutans. This would guarantee their survival. Note: there are literally thousands upon thousands of totally uninhabited islands between Asia and Australia.

Unlike the Panda Bear, which seems determined to go extinct, the Orangutans reproduce rapidly. All you need to guarantee their survival is aprox 30 viable couples. There are vastly more than that in the zoos of the world. Their survival is in no doubt.

Re: Extinction the facts

Bakerman I feel you are mistaking Orang-utans for Chimpanzees

Orang-utans do not reproduce quickly at all a female orangutan does not reach sexual maturity until between the ages of 10-15 years .- they do in fact have the slowest reproduction rates of all primates .
They live solitary lives they don’t live in pairs coming together only for mating .
A baby Orang-utan is completely helpless ( I have seen these and held them they are just like a human baby )
It nurses with its mother for three years but stays with her until about ages about seven.
Orangutans only live in certain parts of the tropical rainforest in Borneo and part of Sumatra .
They could not live on an island ( as do Chimpanzees )as they need the rainforest .
Unfortunately the rainforest is being increasingly destroyed for logging and palm oil.
( nothing lives in a Palm oil plantation they are devoid of life.

I only know these things because I lived in Borneo for many years .

Re: Extinction the facts

Before we get more holier than thou, can I just point out that the UK did indeed have it's own indigenous creatures and carnivores, but we made most of them extinct by our intensive farming and land management. Now you complain about other countries doing the same......Hypocrites!

England was covered in forest, we cut it all down to build houses, roads, railways and factories. Now you complain about Brazilian farmers doing the same to feed and look after their families.....Hypocrites!

If we didn't eat meat and dairy there would be no profit in farmers keeping cows, sheep, hens or pigs.....Four more animals to put on the extinct list...
Not to mention how many farmers would be looking for work in other fields...Not to mention all the supporting industries that produce the tractors and other mechanical farm machinery, Cheese, Butter, Eggs, Milk....And may I remind you that farming is one of the few industries we still have left.

It's alright though if farming goes to the wall, we could buy our produce off the Brazilian farmers......Oh! wait a minute........

Some of us did listen in Science lessons Muddy, and I learned that CO2 is in fact heavier than air, so won't stay up in the atmosphere for long. We also learned that trees and other foliage produce Oxygen through the day, but produce CO2 at night.....sort of a double edged sword Yes? AND! there are usually over 30 active volcanoes spewing out CO2, Methane and other large particles polluting the atmosphere and creating the greenhouse effect, about one hundred times anything man can create.

Methane is caused by decaying material laying on the seabed, lakes, ponds and forests, so as nature does a cleanup job disposing of organic waste material, it is being turned into Methane....I don't think man can compete with that.

Studies from satellites can determine holes in the ozone layer, but how on earth can we compare the holes from history when the first satellite was launched in the sixties? It was said the holes were caused by freon, the gas used in fridges and freezers. But how come the only holes in the ozone layer were identified in the southern hemisphere when the bulk of the population of the Earth are in the northern hemisphere?

Re: Extinction the facts

We are all to blame OGF.

Central heating - it's better than log fires for this many people. You have a good point on dishwashers & washing machines. I guess you'd want to reverse womens' lib and get us chained back to the kitchen stove? If the motor is in the drive it's not a problem!

Central heating, labour saving devices, cars all male inventions. Are mainly male engineers to blame? No I don't think so because ultimately it's the population size that's to blame and the consumerist society. Obsolescence to extend the product life cycle, "greed is good", disposable society, and yes too many humans. We are victims of our own success.

Re: Extinction the facts

No I didn’t not complain about Brazilian farmers because it’s not Brazilian farmers but big corporations who devastate the rainforest .
We did cut down the forests and had factories
BUT WE KNOW BETTER NOW .
Times have moved on .

We eat far too much meat and dairy that why people are obese and the rise in coronary heart disease from the factory farmed meat that many farmers produce now -overweight over medicated animals . cows that are kept in an unnatural state of lactation which causes them pain and suffering .
These animals will never go extinct because they were not alive in this state from the first place . There are plenty of jungle fowls in India and cows and sheep exist in hardy natural forms .
So yes the commercial production of cows sheep and Chickens would go extinct thank goodness!


Tractors are used mainly for ARABLE crops so there will still be a market For them .
Incidentally most of the tractor ps around my rural area are vast things from Germany
We have a farming industry -
?-please look at any supermarket most of our stuff comes from elsewhere ESPECIALLY meat / and dairy produce
Farmers will have to turn their hand to something else as many have already done .




We are CHOPPING DOWN THE TREES at the rate of hundreds of arces per day - haven’t you heard of DEFORESTATION?
And those trees are mainly lin BRAZIL and INDONESIA
They are called RAINFOREST.

Try looking at the cattle , thousands of them penned up on the plains of America . What do you think they produce on a daily basis day after day year after year ?

Quite a lot of China and India are in the Southern Hemisphere for a start they have very large populations .
I am sure a scientist ( if you chose to pay attention to one will explain the hole in the ozone barrier )
But you go on clutching at straws OGF after all it won’t affect you .
It is the generations that follow that will pay the cost of todays global destruction .

Re: Extinction the facts

The problem isn't being caused by us directly OGF but indirectly in demand for consumer goods from abroad. Our forests are nothing and were nothing compared to forests in the Amazon. It's our insatiable appetite that has led to the demand. Now that appetite is spreading. It's not down to one thing here and there but the cumulative effect of our activities as a massive group on this planet.

Re: Extinction the facts

Thank you, Muddy.