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itsme
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12-11-2019, 12:35 PM
41

Re: NO DEAL better than BAD DEAL

Originally Posted by Bread ->
Whats the future of the EU in the next 5 years ?
Better than the UK going around the world with a begging bowl.

Will you please pretty please trade with me.

Nah, anyone daft enough to leave a great trading block that is already trading with the rest of the world isn't worth the risk.
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Bread
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12-11-2019, 12:59 PM
42

Re: NO DEAL better than BAD DEAL

Originally Posted by itsme ->
Better than the UK going around the world with a begging bowl.

Will you please pretty please trade with me.

Nah, anyone daft enough to leave a great trading block that is already trading with the rest of the world isn't worth the risk.
It kind of proves my point.

Remainers vote for the status quo in the assumption that nothing would change. In the referendum there was already the points being made by the leave campaigns that there would be an EU Army (remember Nick Clegg saying it was a "dangerous fantasy" when in a debate with Nigel Farage on Nick Ferraris radio show on LBC ?). There are many other examples, but I'll stick with that one for now.

Then moving forward to after the referendum, the point that leave were making was proven. Remain denied it then turned its opinion to one that suddenly favours the EU army, as if its a great idea (and who needs NATO anyway ???) - completely ignoring the Leave position that was absolutely correct when it made the point back in 2016.

Even now, remainers still don't understand why 17.4 million people voted to leave the EU. They still think we are stupid, racist bigots who didn't know what we were voting for, when the reality is, we were absolutely on the money with just about every prediction on EU membership, its direction of travel etc. We even got it right about the looming recession for Germany and the rest of the 27, the common asylum policy etc etc.

But on the other hand, as you quite willingly point out "It was easy, the country was doing so well, why change ?" ... blindly assuming remain meant the status quo, where everything in the EU would "remain" the same.

You can't deny what you wrote ... it spells it out really clearly what remains position was and still is. The other side of the coin for the remain vote came from those who genuinely didn't want to "rock the boat" so deliberately voted for the status quo by covering their eyes and voting to remain - these are the real voters who genuinely didn't know or didn't want to know about EU membership.

Well, they do now and a lot of them have become "sovereign remainers" who value our democracy and the will of the people over and above remaining in the EU. Others have seen how we have been treated by the EU since the referendum and switched to favouring leave. This is a considerable (huge) number and we will see the swing in favour of leave parties in the General Election.

Finally, your point about the UK offering its begging bowl to other countries to trade with us is way off the mark. There are over 170 countries with no trade agreements who quite openly trade with the EU. Its a nonesense that the UK can't trade outside of the EU block - in fact, of all the 28 member states, the UK is the least integrated with the single market by a country mile. Just remember, the EU's top 3 export markets are ..

1. USA - no trade deal
2. UK - soon to be outside the EU
3. China - no trade deal

The rest are not in the same league as us and our trade with the EU is decreasing year on year, where other countries such as the USA (note the lack of trade deal) has been increasing year on year. Same for China, Brazil, India - all countries outside the EU.
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12-11-2019, 05:00 PM
43

Re: NO DEAL better than BAD DEAL

Originally Posted by itsme ->
Better than the UK going around the world with a begging bowl.

Will you please pretty please trade with me..

This is wholly untrue.

Other countries are lined up wanting to strike trade deals with us after we leave.
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OldGreyFox
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12-11-2019, 05:17 PM
44

Re: NO DEAL better than BAD DEAL

Originally Posted by Bread ->
It kind of proves my point.

Remainers vote for the status quo in the assumption that nothing would change. In the referendum there was already the points being made by the leave campaigns that there would be an EU Army (remember Nick Clegg saying it was a "dangerous fantasy" when in a debate with Nigel Farage on Nick Ferraris radio show on LBC ?). There are many other examples, but I'll stick with that one for now.

Then moving forward to after the referendum, the point that leave were making was proven. Remain denied it then turned its opinion to one that suddenly favours the EU army, as if its a great idea (and who needs NATO anyway ???) - completely ignoring the Leave position that was absolutely correct when it made the point back in 2016.

Even now, remainers still don't understand why 17.4 million people voted to leave the EU. They still think we are stupid, racist bigots who didn't know what we were voting for, when the reality is, we were absolutely on the money with just about every prediction on EU membership, its direction of travel etc. We even got it right about the looming recession for Germany and the rest of the 27, the common asylum policy etc etc.

But on the other hand, as you quite willingly point out "It was easy, the country was doing so well, why change ?" ... blindly assuming remain meant the status quo, where everything in the EU would "remain" the same.

You can't deny what you wrote ... it spells it out really clearly what remains position was and still is. The other side of the coin for the remain vote came from those who genuinely didn't want to "rock the boat" so deliberately voted for the status quo by covering their eyes and voting to remain - these are the real voters who genuinely didn't know or didn't want to know about EU membership.

Well, they do now and a lot of them have become "sovereign remainers" who value our democracy and the will of the people over and above remaining in the EU. Others have seen how we have been treated by the EU since the referendum and switched to favouring leave. This is a considerable (huge) number and we will see the swing in favour of leave parties in the General Election.

Finally, your point about the UK offering its begging bowl to other countries to trade with us is way off the mark. There are over 170 countries with no trade agreements who quite openly trade with the EU. Its a nonesense that the UK can't trade outside of the EU block - in fact, of all the 28 member states, the UK is the least integrated with the single market by a country mile. Just remember, the EU's top 3 export markets are ..

1. USA - no trade deal
2. UK - soon to be outside the EU
3. China - no trade deal

The rest are not in the same league as us and our trade with the EU is decreasing year on year, where other countries such as the USA (note the lack of trade deal) has been increasing year on year. Same for China, Brazil, India - all countries outside the EU.
That just about sums it up for me too Bread.....
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12-11-2019, 06:25 PM
45

Re: NO DEAL better than BAD DEAL

Trade deals have already been signed for:

- Andean countries
- CARIFORUM trade bloc
- Central America
- Chile
- Eastern and Southern Africa (ESA) trade bloc 
- Faroe Islands
- Georgia
- Iceland and Norway
- Israel
- Lebanon
- Liechtenstein
- Morocco
- Pacific states
- Palestinian Authority
- Southern Africa Customs Union and Mozambique (SACUM) trade bloc
- South Korea
- Switzerland
- Tunisia


Trade Deals are already in discussion with:

- Albania
- Algeria
- Andorra Customs union
- San Marino Customs union
- Bosnia & Herzegovina
- Cameroon (Central Africa)
- Canada Free trade agreement
- Côte d’Ivoire
- Egypt
- Ghana
- Japan Free trade agreement
- Jordan
- Kenya
- Kosovo
- Mexico Free trade agreement
- Moldova
- Montenegro
- North Macedonia
- Serbia
- Turkey Customs union
- Ukraine



In addition Australia, New Zealand and United States have signed mutual recognition agreements.

Australia's PM Malcom Turnbull has said he is "very keen" to do a trade deal with the UK "as quickly as possible"

Canada's PM Justin Trudeau has said he wants a "seamless" trade deal with the UK

South Korea likewise was a seamless trade deal.

Brazil and Argentina have expressed an enthusiastic desire to do a trade deal with the UK


and so on and so forth . . .
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Solasch
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14-11-2019, 08:11 PM
46

Re: NO DEAL better than BAD DEAL

Originally Posted by Realist ->
Trade deals have already been signed for:

- Andean countries
- CARIFORUM trade bloc
- Central America
- Chile
- Eastern and Southern Africa (ESA) trade bloc 
- Faroe Islands
- Georgia
- Iceland and Norway
- Israel
- Lebanon
- Liechtenstein
- Morocco
- Pacific states
- Palestinian Authority
- Southern Africa Customs Union and Mozambique (SACUM) trade bloc
- South Korea
- Switzerland
- Tunisia


Trade Deals are already in discussion with:

- Albania
- Algeria
- Andorra Customs union
- San Marino Customs union
- Bosnia & Herzegovina
- Cameroon (Central Africa)
- Canada Free trade agreement
- Côte d’Ivoire
- Egypt
- Ghana
- Japan Free trade agreement
- Jordan
- Kenya
- Kosovo
- Mexico Free trade agreement
- Moldova
- Montenegro
- North Macedonia
- Serbia
- Turkey Customs union
- Ukraine



In addition Australia, New Zealand and United States have signed mutual recognition agreements.

Australia's PM Malcom Turnbull has said he is "very keen" to do a trade deal with the UK "as quickly as possible"

Canada's PM Justin Trudeau has said he wants a "seamless" trade deal with the UK

South Korea likewise was a seamless trade deal.

Brazil and Argentina have expressed an enthusiastic desire to do a trade deal with the UK


and so on and so forth . . .
I've posted this before, but here goes again. If you ad up the agreements you sum up as being under discussion, they represent 8% of the total UK trade in 2018.
So it would seem you still have a long way to go to reach 100%. Sigh!

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/uk-trade...no-deal-brexit
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Donkeyman
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14-11-2019, 09:48 PM
47

Re: NO DEAL better than BAD DEAL

Originally Posted by Solasch ->
I've posted this before, but here goes again. If you ad up the agreements you sum up as being under discussion, they represent 8% of the total UK trade in 2018.
So it would seem you still have a long way to go to reach 100%. Sigh!

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/uk-trade...no-deal-brexit
Solly you forget the preexisting trade deals that uk had before
EU entry,nthey are what have been paying for our benefits of
EU membership ever since we joined!!
Donkeyman!
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Solasch
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15-11-2019, 02:49 AM
48

Re: NO DEAL better than BAD DEAL

Originally Posted by Donkeyman ->
Solly you forget the preexisting trade deals that uk had before
EU entry,nthey are what have been paying for our benefits of
EU membership ever since we joined!!
Donkeyman!
Tell that to india, new zealand, australia and the rest of the commonwealth. Inthose days your only trading "partners"
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Bread
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15-11-2019, 11:16 AM
49

Re: NO DEAL better than BAD DEAL

Originally Posted by Solasch ->
Tell that to india, new zealand, australia and the rest of the commonwealth. Inthose days your only trading "partners"
There are a lot more countries of the commonwealth to trade with than the 27 in the EU.

And in "those days" the Commonwealth were not our only trading partners either, your revising history and making things up.
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Solasch
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15-11-2019, 02:40 PM
50

Re: NO DEAL better than BAD DEAL

Originally Posted by Bread ->
There are a lot more countries of the commonwealth to trade with than the 27 in the EU.

And in "those days" the Commonwealth were not our only trading partners either, your revising history and making things up.
The UK’s decision to join the European Economic Community in 1973 dealt a sharp blow to the likes of New Zealand, which had enjoyed privileged access to the British market. But in truth a global trading bloc anchored on the UK was already disappearing. The “sterling area” of fixed exchange rates that had facilitated trade within the British empire had been severely weakened when the UK was forced to devalue the pound in 1967. Thereafter, the Commonwealth as a meaningful trading area began to cease to exist. The advanced economies turned to other markets. Poorer countries, particularly in Africa, retain access to the UK through preferential EU trade agreements, but have relatively little to sell. The UK can hope to do little more than replicate those EU deals.
In which the UK succeeded as Realist shows in his above post.

The Commonwealth, by contrast, does not function as a trading area. Some credulous commentators place faith in a “Canzuk” bloc emerging, including Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the UK. But Canada’s most important trading partner by far is the US, and its regulation and trade policy are oriented towards its southern neighbour. Australia and New Zealand are closely aligned with each other, but beyond that they are far more concerned with China and other Asian markets than with English-speaking countries on the far side of the world.

https://www.ft.com/content/2761fc62-...f-67ac3a6482fd
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