Re: Serious problems with flu shot safety and effectiveness

His figures appear to be rubbish. Was any source quoted?

Re: Serious problems with flu shot safety and effectiveness

The problem there is that the numbers would be going down not up if the vaccine had any effect at all. Unfortunately the numbers are rising. QED the vaccine is useless and a possible suspect for the rising numbers.


Yes I have checked. I've done my research and provided you with all the links to the data. You obviously haven't checked those links or bothered to look.

I would agree, ALWAYS BEWARE of anyone spouting utter crap who has absolutely no source references to backup their spiel. There's an awful lot of it on this forum.

Myself however, I ALWAYS provide source links for the information I put up. It's not anecdotal rhetoric, it is based in fact and there are source references given every time.

In respect of this particular issue, the number of deaths attributed to Influneza itself, one has to be careful. The gathering of statistics by some quarters is not "clinical", not thorough and thus in some cases the death toll they cite is actually a huge mix of deaths caused by various conditions including Influenza itself, pneumonia, renal issues, other respiratory conditions and so on.

I have no axe to grind as you put it here. I'm happy to see people put numbers up for debate. What is very clear is that the waters can be seriously muddied by people not properly keeping the true statistics.

So, this said, let me once again do the work for you by again providing the links to the UK Government numbers for Influenza caused deaths, from the Office For National Statistics.

I'm providing the links to the raw data which ONS provide in Excel Spreadsheet form. In each case simply go to TABLE 2 in the spreadsheet and scroll down to the line for Influenza Deaths which is quoted for Male and Females separately.

2017 - https://www.ons.gov.uk/file?uri=/peo...s2017final.xls
2016 - https://www.ons.gov.uk/file?uri=/peo...s2016final.xls
2015 - https://www.ons.gov.uk/file?uri=/peo...elease2015.xls
2014 - https://www.ons.gov.uk/file?uri=/peo...m77-410299.xls
2013 - https://www.ons.gov.uk/file?uri=/peo...m77-370787.xls
2012 - https://www.ons.gov.uk/file?uri=/peo...m77-317489.xls
2011 - https://www.ons.gov.uk/file?uri=/peo...m77-282971.xls
2010 - https://www.ons.gov.uk/file?uri=/peo...m77-227839.xls
2009 - https://www.ons.gov.uk/file?uri=/peo...ata-tables.zip
2008 - https://www.ons.gov.uk/file?uri=/peo...ata-tables.zip



Happy reading

Re: Serious problems with flu shot safety and effectiveness

Your research is seriously flawed

You claim 79 deaths for 2009 yet other sources report deaths of over a hundred:

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...k-1803636.html

To tens of thousands:

"estimated excess of 13,058 influenza A all-cause deaths"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3859479/

The BMJ reported 138 confirmed swine flu deaths in 2009

https://www.bmj.com/content/339/bmj.b5213

Again a figure at odds with your simplistic study

According to Centre for Clinical Vaccinology and Tropical Medicine, Churchill Hospital, University of Oxford.

"In the UK it is estimated that an average of 600 people a year die from complications of flu."

http://vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk/influenza-flu

Note that these are authoritative sources not some old bloke with too much time on his hands trawling through statistics that he doesn't understand.

This is the problem with untrained people reading statistics that they are not skilled enough to use in any meaningful way. It could well be that deaths from flu are included in other categories.

And if you think I am going to plough through the nonsense you come up with then you are out of your tiny mind. It is so easily shown to be incomplete, ill advised drivel yet you expect people to take notice of this rubbish you spew out.

Re: Serious problems with flu shot safety and effectiveness

Can we be sure numbers would go down as the number on the planet rises daily ? and many places don't vaccinate at all so are vulnerable to all sorts of diseases ?

Re: Serious problems with flu shot safety and effectiveness

@Bruce

As I said, you are now playing with numbers, as my old Maths teacher would say, you are trying to compare apples with oranges.

I was very clear in what I said to you. There are mortality rates attributable SPECIFICALLY to Influenza. That is what the ONS numbers are.

There are also mortality rates attributable to a wide variety of other illnesses, complications and conditions, for example Pneumonia. The stats you are providing there fall into this latter category.

Let's deal with them.

Firstly the Independent article I'm afraid is to be ignored. It's a newspaper, not a medical authoritative body but the most damning element of the articles is that it FAILS TO CITE AND SOURCE REFERENCE for its numbers. It has to be ignored (whether it supported my numbers or not).


The second reference you cite, the NCBI link is providing numbers for ALL related causes and conditions as well as specific flu cause. It tells you this in the opening statement:

"The objective of this study was to estimate the impact of influenza on all-cause and cause-specific mortality during this period"

I have no problem with its numbers but you have to understand the numbers are NOT deaths SPECIFICALLY caused by Influenza (which is what the ONS numbers are).
They are numbers using certain algorithms to try and sift through the wide range of illnesses and conditions and come up with guesstimates of how many of those might have been linked to Influenza.

Again, let me be clear, I have NO PROBLEM whatsoever in looking at these different type of statistics or any others. Just as long as you understand them for what they are.

The same situation exists for the VX link you provided.


CONCLUSION
=========

Nothing you have posted there contradicts or undermines the Death Mortality Rates provided by the UK Government ONS data. The ONS data is what it is. It is the number of people who have died SPECIFICALLY from Influenza. Nothing more, nothing less.

What is important is the trend of such statistics. If the trend is going up then the flu vaccines are not doing their job are they?!


If you wish, then by all means go and get hold of all the mortality statistics for ALL CAUSES, all illnesses, conditions, complications relating to or occurring after a bout of flu. Grab that data for every year in the UK and we'll take a look.
We'll be able to see if those numbers are going up or down.


Nope. Its not MY research, its the official data from the UK Government Office For National Statistics. They record every death in the UK (Coroner's Reports etc) and log the cause of death. The numbers are not flawed as such, they just represent the deaths specifically caused by Influenza.

Other sources are reporting ALL conditions not deaths specifically caused by Influenza. Apples, bananas.

Re: Serious problems with flu shot safety and effectiveness

Reasonable question.

Here's the official statement about the % take-up of the flu vaccine in the UK Julie:

"72.6% (7,426,917/10,235,533) for patients aged 65 years and over, compared to 70.5% in 2016 to 2017"

This is the source:

Seasonal influenza vaccine uptake in GP patients: winter season 2017 to 2018
Final data for 1 September 2017 to 31 January 2018

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...7_to_2018..pdf


Genuine question.

Do you not think, honestly and sincerely, that IF the flu vaccine had any efficacy at all, and that if 72% of the older generation ARE having that vaccine, that the mortality rates from Influenza would be coming down rather than going up?

That's a high take-up imho.

Re: Serious problems with flu shot safety and effectiveness

Well said.

I admit that I have disagreed with you before on different matters, but I will say that you have here provided clear evidence of your case.

I would rather accept official government figures than those found in newspapers.

It is a well known fact that ALL newspapers are biased one way or another.

Re: Serious problems with flu shot safety and effectiveness

Whilst that may be the case, the problem in this instance is that the newspaper article fails to cite its source for the numbers it provides. That's a fundamental error on their part. It means no-one can examine the underlying data. We can't tell for example what they are including and excluding from their numbers.

Re: Serious problems with flu shot safety and effectiveness

True.

Re: Serious problems with flu shot safety and effectiveness

For Julie

The link below is the official ONS report on ALL mortality in the UK, i.e. all causes of death:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...arytomarch2018

If you read through it you will see that they understand and have taken account of the rising number of people in the population, the point that you raised earlier.

Despite this the trends that their data shows is clear. The overall number of deaths in the UK (all causes) has been gradually dropping. Here are 2 of the charts in the article, separate charts for Males and Females, the trend is the same, mortality dropping.






So, given the above data, given that despite population increase, the number of deaths is going down, why is it then that the number of deaths SPECIFICALLY caused by Influenza have been going UP ?!