04-02-2019, 08:35 AM
161
Re: Benefits of EU membership?
Originally Posted by AnnieS
->
It's a combination of post-war policy mainly led by the US to promote unity of Europe and were in part to provide a defence against the soviet threat in part to prevent future wars in Europe. The EU developed from various treaties that all stemmed from the "ever closer union" in the Treaty of Rome which they continue to pursue. JFK's speech if you care to read it sums up the gist of it. But the history is there if you care to look for it. NATO is part of the package that stemmed from the same desire to promote peace. It certainly worked in Europe for the rest of the 20th C. The theory is that democracy and prosperity are desirable for peace to exist. Countries that have both are not likely to attack one another. The EU will still exist after we Leave. Your claims are ludicrous that the EU is responsible for peace.
The EU is merely somethimg the original orgs you refer to have morphed in to but Western Europe was already peaceful in 1992 and as I said, there is no appetite for war amongst Wesern European nations .
So are you saying the average Brit is ignorant? If people here are not interested in the EU you cannot blame anyone for that except our own establishment.
There is no such thing as an average Brit. It is only Remainers that wish to question the mass populations' intelligence. It's a form of Social Oppresion that you yourself are guilty of.
We don't, we have a bloated unelected 2nd chamber. How is that democracy??
The HoL is not the place where the electorate are represented nor is it responsible for proposing legislation. Your mention of the HoL is a disingenuous Red Herring as well you know. For the record I would ban the HoL tomorrow.
Social media is driving detritus in the thinking of the general public. It's full of inconsistencies and half-truths. Lots of revisionism and misleading suggestions to manipulate thinking into the mire. But people believe the sewage sweepers because what else do they have to go on?
I doubt you have any evidence for your sweeping claims. But on one evel I agree socisal media is full of crap which iswhy I don't go anywhere near it. However, if it does influence Leavers it would therefore influence Remainers in equal measure.........IF..........
The majority of those countries are part of other trading blocks or large enough to be one of their own. We don't have one or another so that leaves us in no man's land if we don't make a deal.
Leaving will not stop us joining plenty of trading blocs and our economy is massive.
I'm not saying that being in the EU is the be all, but it's been good for our economy and it's been good for peace in Europe.
This thread is about the benefits of EU membership. I'm just representing the benefits as I see them. We lost a lot of lives in both world wars. One of the reasons I voted remain is because I see European Unity & the mutual prosperity it has created as the main reason we have avoided a repeat. Our leaving is a big crack in the status quo.
The status quo was being fractured by the EU pushing for Ever Closer Union........That was a push too far and one the majority of Brits do not want........It's the EU you need to question. They should have left itself as a trading bloc and ditch this attempt to become a superpower
There are those outside the EU who would love that unity to fragment and for the EU to fail. Someone is pushing for this chaos and they are not our friends. Think of it as your idea to leave, but I rather think it's outside influence that has made this happen.
You are now believing outlandish conspiracy theories because you have lost the Remain argument..........Be Careful!
04-02-2019, 10:52 AM
162
Re: Benefits of EU membership?
Originally Posted by Moscow
->
There is no such thing as an average Brit. It is only Remainers that wish to question the mass populations' intelligence. It's a form of Social Oppresion that you yourself are guilty of. ......
04-02-2019, 11:03 AM
163
Re: Benefits of EU membership?
Originally Posted by AnnieS
->
Why do you mention Bosnia?
You said that the EU keeps the peace ... that's laughable.
Paris burning with the yellow vest movement, Greece is almost at the stage where it has civil war due to the level of poverty inflicted by the EU, Italy wants to have it's own currency and has the 5th highest level of debt in the world - and they are supporting the yellow vests in France.
NATO and the UN has done more for keeping the peace around the world (not just Europe) than the EU ever has.
It wasn't so long ago the EU sat back and ignored Spain instructing its police to beat up the fire brigade, innocent women and thousands of voters when there was the Catalonia independence vote.
Now its mungering its own army ... Germany buying Eurofighters instead of F35s, Galileo to annex itself from US data sharing, replacing safe harbour with GDPR etc etc... the list goes on.
If it was really intent on keeping the peace, it would have upheld its NATO contributions..... but it doesn't.
The EU is hated by the USA, the UK and Russia - good luck with keeping the peace.
04-02-2019, 11:17 AM
164
Re: Benefits of EU membership?
Originally Posted by Moscow
->
The EU is not responsible for maintaining peace because that is Nato's achievement. Not only that but after WW2 there was no appetite for war in Western Europe so your claim that is thanks to the EU ( formed in 1992 btw) is utter tosh.
The problem with your wonderful democratic nirvana for Brits is that it is simply too far removed from their consciousness to seem relevant.
Most Brits can't name their own MEP let alone many of the 27 other European leaders, any other countries' MEPs or tbh hardly anyone involved in the EU Gov't..........and even if they could name them there is absolutely no sense that they are accountable to the British electorate have British interests at heart or even understand what British voters' interests might be.
Saying we don't have democracy here is meaningless and trite as is your social media comment.
Just so you know, there are 193 countries on Planet Earth and only ( soon to be ) 27 are in the EU.
The vast majority are outwith the EU and most are prosperous, most are peaceful and many have economies that are far more dynamic and growing much faster than those in the EU .
Being IN the EU is not the be all and end all.....
Trading with the EU makes sense .....
United States $59.09B 2017
Germany $46.64B 2017
France $32.86B 2017
Netherlands $27.43B 2017
Ireland $24.90B 2017
China $21.45B 2017
Switzerland $20.25B 2017
Belgium $17.77B 2017
Spain $13.46B 2017
Italy $13.19B 2017
United Arab Emirates $9.61B 2017
Turkey $9.55B 2017
Hong Kong $9.32B 2017
South Korea $7.48B 2017
Japan $7.35B 2017
Sweden $6.80B 2017
Poland $6.41B 2017
Canada $6.22B 2017
Singapore $6.20B 2017
Australia $5.76B 2017
Saudi Arabia $5.40B 2017
India $5.24B 2017
Norway $3.85B 2017
Russia $3.69B 2017
Denmark $3.53B 2017
Qatar $3.11B 2017
Czech Republic $2.74B 2017
South Africa $2.73B 2017
Austria $2.43B 2017
Oman $2.38B 2017
Brazil $2.32B 2017
Portugal $2.03B 2017
Mexico $1.99B 2017
Hungary $1.86B 2017
Malaysia $1.82B 2017
Finland $1.76B 2017
Thailand $1.61B 2017
Romania $1.59B 2017
Egypt $1.56B 2017
Israel $1.54B 2017
Nigeria $1.44B 2017
Greece $1.26B 2017
New Zealand $1.11B 2017
Macedonia $1.02B 2017
Indonesia $1.00B 2017
Morocco $992.52M 2017
Pakistan $882.19M 2017
Kuwait $795.25M 2017
Slovakia $775.09M 2017
Chile $771.36M 2017
Vietnam $744.83M 2017
Lithuania $712.71M 2017
Philippines $681.93M 2017
Malta $656.85M 2017
Bahrain $635.54M 2017
Colombia $587.19M 2017
Bulgaria $585.90M 2017
Ukraine $523.89M 2017
Iceland $510.82M 2017
Angola $492.56M 2017
Gibraltar $490.48M 2017
Cyprus $488.63M 2017
Ghana $488.26M 2017
Lebanon $475.31M 2017
Latvia $455.27M 2017
Argentina $447.75M 2017
Jordan $446.96M 2017
Kenya $442.49M 2017
Algeria $429.30M 2017
Iraq $419.13M 2017
Slovenia $350.81M 2017
Luxembourg $339.03M 2017
Estonia $325.55M 2017
Ethiopia $309.85M 2017
Bangladesh $303.19M 2017
Kazakhstan $295.84M 2017
Iran $291.20M 2017
Azerbaijan $286.98M 2017
Senegal $255.47M 2017
Croatia $244.69M 2017
Libya $240.19M 2017
Sri Lanka $240.01M 2017
Peru $229.84M 2017
Uruguay $227.30M 2017
Tunisia $193.07M 2017
Serbia $192.36M 2017
Panama $175.05M 2017
Belarus $164.26M 2017
Bermuda $146.43M 2017
Ivory Coast $143.19M 2017
Trinidad And Tobago $138.89M 2017
Dominican Republic $129.16M 2017
Georgia $126.42M 2017
Ecuador $126.02M 2017
Tanzania $114.07M 2017
Mauritius $104.97M 2017
Sudan $101.23M 2017
Jamaica $97.36M 2017
Costa Rica $88.62M 2017
Venezuela $85.95M 2017
Brunei $82.78M 2017
Zambia $77.10M 2017
Republic of the Congo $74.55M 2017
Macau $68.81M 2017
undefined $58.20M 2017
Uganda $56.75M 2017
Barbados $56.45M 2017
Cameroon $55.65M 2017
Namibia $54.98M 2017
Moldova $53.61M 2017
Gabon $53.44M 2017
Mali $51.75M 2017
Togo $48.14M 2017
Turkmenistan $47.60M 2017
Cambodia $47.44M 2017
Yemen $46.72M 2017
Cayman Islands $46.12M 2017
Guatemala $45.30M 2017
Paraguay $42.78M 2017
Guyana $40.82M 2017
Sierra Leone $40.16M 2017
Myanmar $38.72M 2017
Zimbabwe $38.04M 2017
Uzbekistan $37.94M 2017
Botswana $37.89M 2017
Bahamas $37.69M 2017
Aruba $36.09M 2017
Bosnia And Herzegovina $35.17M 2017
Gambia $34.63M 2017
Mongolia $33.95M 2017
Madagascar $33.87M 2017
Equatorial Guinea $32.48M 2017
Cuba $31.96M 2017
Seychelles $30.65M 2017
British Virgin Islands $30.09M 2017
Congo $29.28M 2017
Papua New Guinea $29.21M 2017
Mozambique $28.53M 2017
Guinea $28.28M 2017
El Salvador $27.65M 2017
Afghanistan $27.04M 2017
Faroe Islands $26.69M 2017
Saint Lucia $25.43M 2017
Bolivia $24.33M 2017
Albania $24.16M 2017
Benin $22.87M 2017
Antigua and Barbuda $21.54M 2017
Haiti $21.16M 2017
Belize $20.54M 2017
St Helena $20.20M 2017
Liberia $18.89M 2017
Mauritania $18.78M 2017
New Caledonia $18.31M 2017
Maldives $18.22M 2017
Fiji $18.05M 2017
Malawi $17.79M 2017
Montenegro $17.54M 2017
Samoa $16.83M 2017
St Vincent and the Grenadines $16.01M 2017
Somalia $15.13M 2017
Suriname $14.25M 2017
Honduras $14.13M 2017
Armenia $14.01M 2017
Djibouti $13.57M 2017
Curacao $13.50M 2017
Nepal $13.19M 2017
Grenada $12.98M 2017
Burkina Faso $12.94M 2017
Laos $11.82M 2017
Rwanda $11.77M 2017
Syria $11.44M 2017
Dominica $10.66M 2017
Andorra $10.05M 2017
Chad $9.43M 2017
St Kitts and Nevis $9.36M 2017
French Polynesia $9.09M 2017
Nicaragua $8.61M 2017
Niger $8.47M 2017
Kyrgyzstan $8.12M 2017
Saint Maarten $8.02M 2017
San Marino $7.38M 2017
Palestine $7.25M 2017
Greenland $4.29M 2017
undefined $3.89M 2017
Turks and Caicos Isds $3.83M 2017
Sao Tome And Principe $3.67M 2017
Swaziland $3.67M 2017
Burundi $3.66M 2017
South Sudan $3.10M 2017
Cape Verde $2.67M 2017
Bonaire $2.57M 2017
Montserrat $2.01M 2017
Bhutan $1.90M 2017
Niue $1.76M 2017
Central African Republic $1.66M 2017
Comoros $1.54M 2017
undefined $1.45M 2017
Eritrea $1.35M 2017
Saint Barthélemy $1.26M 2017
Lesotho $1.23M 2017
Tonga $1.21M 2017
Tajikistan $1.16M 2017
Marshall Islands $1.16M 2017
Pitcairn Islands $1.00M 2017
Guinea Bissau $929.57K 2017
Vanuatu $928.04K 2017
undefined $904.04K 2017
Northern Mariana Islands $736.13K 2017
Anguilla $717.90K 2017
undefined $614.08K 2017
Solomon Islands $572.38K 2017
FS Micronesia $393.49K 2017
East Timor $291.43K 2017
North Korea $279.82K 2017
Cocos Keeling Islands $271.62K 2017
undefined $220.78K 2017
Kiribati $205.80K 2017
Palau $162.97K 2017
Heard Island and McDonald Islands $116.81K 2017
French Southern and Antarctic Lands $89.41K 2017
undefined $49.22K 2017
British Indian Ocean Territory $43.61K 2017
Cook Islands $38.90K 2017
Christmas Island $36.56K 2017
undefined $36.5K 2017
Wallis and Futuna $30.33K 2017
Western Sahara $27.96K 2017
Tuvalu $5.19K 2017
Norfolk Island $5.11K 2017
St Pierre and Miquelon $4.89K 2017
Mayotte $1.63M 2013
South Sandwich Islands $55.88K 2012
Netherlands Antilles $73.19M 2010
Tokelau $12.54M 2010
Serbia and Montenegro $105.08M 2005
US Misc. Pacific Islands $5.50M 1999
Reunion $23.99M 1995
Martinique $21.77M 1995
Guadeloupe $10.57M 1995
French Guiana $3.67M 1995
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-...rts-by-country
Didn't count how many but can't be far of 193 as you state. So if we already trade with all these countries, what is the point of leaving the EU? and what are the advantages?
04-02-2019, 11:26 AM
165
Re: Benefits of EU membership?
Originally Posted by itsme
->
We already trade with;United States $59.09B 2017
Germany $46.64B 2017
France $32.86B 2017
Netherlands $27.43B 2017
Ireland $24.90B 2017
China $21.45B 2017
Switzerland $20.25B 2017
Belgium $17.77B 2017
Spain $13.46B 2017
Italy $13.19B 2017
United Arab Emirates $9.61B 2017
Turkey $9.55B 2017
Hong Kong $9.32B 2017
South Korea $7.48B 2017
Japan $7.35B 2017
Sweden $6.80B 2017
Poland $6.41B 2017
Canada $6.22B 2017
Singapore $6.20B 2017
Australia $5.76B 2017
Saudi Arabia $5.40B 2017
India $5.24B 2017
Norway $3.85B 2017
Russia $3.69B 2017
Denmark $3.53B 2017
Qatar $3.11B 2017
Czech Republic $2.74B 2017
South Africa $2.73B 2017
Austria $2.43B 2017
Oman $2.38B 2017
Brazil $2.32B 2017
Portugal $2.03B 2017
Mexico $1.99B 2017
Hungary $1.86B 2017
Malaysia $1.82B 2017
Finland $1.76B 2017
Thailand $1.61B 2017
Romania $1.59B 2017
Egypt $1.56B 2017
Israel $1.54B 2017
Nigeria $1.44B 2017
Greece $1.26B 2017
New Zealand $1.11B 2017
Macedonia $1.02B 2017
Indonesia $1.00B 2017
Morocco $992.52M 2017
Pakistan $882.19M 2017
Kuwait $795.25M 2017
Slovakia $775.09M 2017
Chile $771.36M 2017
Vietnam $744.83M 2017
Lithuania $712.71M 2017
Philippines $681.93M 2017
Malta $656.85M 2017
Bahrain $635.54M 2017
Colombia $587.19M 2017
Bulgaria $585.90M 2017
Ukraine $523.89M 2017
Iceland $510.82M 2017
Angola $492.56M 2017
Gibraltar $490.48M 2017
Cyprus $488.63M 2017
Ghana $488.26M 2017
Lebanon $475.31M 2017
Latvia $455.27M 2017
Argentina $447.75M 2017
Jordan $446.96M 2017
Kenya $442.49M 2017
Algeria $429.30M 2017
Iraq $419.13M 2017
Slovenia $350.81M 2017
Luxembourg $339.03M 2017
Estonia $325.55M 2017
Ethiopia $309.85M 2017
Bangladesh $303.19M 2017
Kazakhstan $295.84M 2017
Iran $291.20M 2017
Azerbaijan $286.98M 2017
Senegal $255.47M 2017
Croatia $244.69M 2017
Libya $240.19M 2017
Sri Lanka $240.01M 2017
Peru $229.84M 2017
Uruguay $227.30M 2017
Tunisia $193.07M 2017
Serbia $192.36M 2017
Panama $175.05M 2017
Belarus $164.26M 2017
Bermuda $146.43M 2017
Ivory Coast $143.19M 2017
Trinidad And Tobago $138.89M 2017
Dominican Republic $129.16M 2017
Georgia $126.42M 2017
Ecuador $126.02M 2017
Tanzania $114.07M 2017
Mauritius $104.97M 2017
Sudan $101.23M 2017
Jamaica $97.36M 2017
Costa Rica $88.62M 2017
Venezuela $85.95M 2017
Brunei $82.78M 2017
Zambia $77.10M 2017
Republic of the Congo $74.55M 2017
Macau $68.81M 2017
undefined $58.20M 2017
Uganda $56.75M 2017
Barbados $56.45M 2017
Cameroon $55.65M 2017
Namibia $54.98M 2017
Moldova $53.61M 2017
Gabon $53.44M 2017
Mali $51.75M 2017
Togo $48.14M 2017
Turkmenistan $47.60M 2017
Cambodia $47.44M 2017
Yemen $46.72M 2017
Cayman Islands $46.12M 2017
Guatemala $45.30M 2017
Paraguay $42.78M 2017
Guyana $40.82M 2017
Sierra Leone $40.16M 2017
Myanmar $38.72M 2017
Zimbabwe $38.04M 2017
Uzbekistan $37.94M 2017
Botswana $37.89M 2017
Bahamas $37.69M 2017
Aruba $36.09M 2017
Bosnia And Herzegovina $35.17M 2017
Gambia $34.63M 2017
Mongolia $33.95M 2017
Madagascar $33.87M 2017
Equatorial Guinea $32.48M 2017
Cuba $31.96M 2017
Seychelles $30.65M 2017
British Virgin Islands $30.09M 2017
Congo $29.28M 2017
Papua New Guinea $29.21M 2017
Mozambique $28.53M 2017
Guinea $28.28M 2017
El Salvador $27.65M 2017
Afghanistan $27.04M 2017
Faroe Islands $26.69M 2017
Saint Lucia $25.43M 2017
Bolivia $24.33M 2017
Albania $24.16M 2017
Benin $22.87M 2017
Antigua and Barbuda $21.54M 2017
Haiti $21.16M 2017
Belize $20.54M 2017
St Helena $20.20M 2017
Liberia $18.89M 2017
Mauritania $18.78M 2017
New Caledonia $18.31M 2017
Maldives $18.22M 2017
Fiji $18.05M 2017
Malawi $17.79M 2017
Montenegro $17.54M 2017
Samoa $16.83M 2017
St Vincent and the Grenadines $16.01M 2017
Somalia $15.13M 2017
Suriname $14.25M 2017
Honduras $14.13M 2017
Armenia $14.01M 2017
Djibouti $13.57M 2017
Curacao $13.50M 2017
Nepal $13.19M 2017
Grenada $12.98M 2017
Burkina Faso $12.94M 2017
Laos $11.82M 2017
Rwanda $11.77M 2017
Syria $11.44M 2017
Dominica $10.66M 2017
Andorra $10.05M 2017
Chad $9.43M 2017
St Kitts and Nevis $9.36M 2017
French Polynesia $9.09M 2017
Nicaragua $8.61M 2017
Niger $8.47M 2017
Kyrgyzstan $8.12M 2017
Saint Maarten $8.02M 2017
San Marino $7.38M 2017
Palestine $7.25M 2017
Greenland $4.29M 2017
undefined $3.89M 2017
Turks and Caicos Isds $3.83M 2017
Sao Tome And Principe $3.67M 2017
Swaziland $3.67M 2017
Burundi $3.66M 2017
South Sudan $3.10M 2017
Cape Verde $2.67M 2017
Bonaire $2.57M 2017
Montserrat $2.01M 2017
Bhutan $1.90M 2017
Niue $1.76M 2017
Central African Republic $1.66M 2017
Comoros $1.54M 2017
undefined $1.45M 2017
Eritrea $1.35M 2017
Saint Barthélemy $1.26M 2017
Lesotho $1.23M 2017
Tonga $1.21M 2017
Tajikistan $1.16M 2017
Marshall Islands $1.16M 2017
Pitcairn Islands $1.00M 2017
Guinea Bissau $929.57K 2017
Vanuatu $928.04K 2017
undefined $904.04K 2017
Northern Mariana Islands $736.13K 2017
Anguilla $717.90K 2017
undefined $614.08K 2017
Solomon Islands $572.38K 2017
FS Micronesia $393.49K 2017
East Timor $291.43K 2017
North Korea $279.82K 2017
Cocos Keeling Islands $271.62K 2017
undefined $220.78K 2017
Kiribati $205.80K 2017
Palau $162.97K 2017
Heard Island and McDonald Islands $116.81K 2017
French Southern and Antarctic Lands $89.41K 2017
undefined $49.22K 2017
British Indian Ocean Territory $43.61K 2017
Cook Islands $38.90K 2017
Christmas Island $36.56K 2017
undefined $36.5K 2017
Wallis and Futuna $30.33K 2017
Western Sahara $27.96K 2017
Tuvalu $5.19K 2017
Norfolk Island $5.11K 2017
St Pierre and Miquelon $4.89K 2017
Mayotte $1.63M 2013
South Sandwich Islands $55.88K 2012
Netherlands Antilles $73.19M 2010
Tokelau $12.54M 2010
Serbia and Montenegro $105.08M 2005
US Misc. Pacific Islands $5.50M 1999
Reunion $23.99M 1995
Martinique $21.77M 1995
Guadeloupe $10.57M 1995
French Guiana $3.67M 1995
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-...rts-by-country
Didn't count how many but can't be far of 193 as you state. So if we already trade with all these countries, what is the point of leaving the EU? and what are the advantages?
Because we can't trade on our terms and the EU favours german manufacturing and French farming over anything else.
It's also a failing economic model
04-02-2019, 11:34 AM
167
Re: Benefits of EU membership?
Originally Posted by Bread
->
Because we can't trade on our terms and the EU favours german manufacturing and French farming over anything else.It's also a failing economic model
Our terms??? how do they differ from the existing????
Where is your evidence that the EU favours German manufacturing and French farmers.
More nonsense!!!!!!!
04-02-2019, 11:47 AM
168
Re: Benefits of EU membership?
Originally Posted by Bread
->
Where were the member states jumping to help the genocide in Bosnia ?You said that the EU keeps the peace ... that's laughable.
Paris burning with the yellow vest movement, Greece is almost at the stage where it has civil war due to the level of poverty inflicted by the EU, Italy wants to have it's own currency and has the 5th highest level of debt in the world - and they are supporting the yellow vests in France.
NATO and the UN has done more for keeping the peace around the world (not just Europe) than the EU ever has.
It wasn't so long ago the EU sat back and ignored Spain instructing its police to beat up the fire brigade, innocent women and thousands of voters when there was the Catalonia independence vote.
Now its mungering its own army ... Germany buying Eurofighters instead of F35s, Galileo to annex itself from US data sharing, replacing safe harbour with GDPR etc etc... the list goes on.
If it was really intent on keeping the peace, it would have upheld its NATO contributions..... but it doesn't.
The EU is hated by the USA, the UK and Russia - good luck with keeping the peace.
There is confusion over NATO contributions. All countries have paid. The sticking point is not whether they have paid into a pot (they all have) but about investment in their own armed forces being a certain % of gdp.
04-02-2019, 11:51 AM
169
Re: Benefits of EU membership?
Originally Posted by itsme
->
Our terms??? how do they differ from the existing????Where is your evidence that the EU favours German manufacturing and French farmers.
More nonsense!!!!!!!
The EU is based on German manufacturing and French Farmers (CAP) - that's how the EU works, why it was set up in the first place and why its so dependent on Merkels cars.
04-02-2019, 12:02 PM
170
Re: Benefits of EU membership?
Originally Posted by Bread
->
They don't - because they are determined by Brussels, not us. We cannot make our own trade arrangements because we are in the customs union - one of the main reasons we voted leave.The EU is based on German manufacturing and French Farmers (CAP) - that's how the EU works, why it was set up in the first place and why its so dependent on Merkels cars.
The EU is based on the principles of the Treaty of Rome and nothing to do with German manufacturing.
I know we can't make our own trade agreements, although we have representation on the negotiating council, but I say AGAIN, what are the advantages?????? of doing our own.
CAP = Common Agricultural Policy, the clue is in the name, and is not just directed to France.
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