19-08-2019, 04:55 PM
61
Re: EU Poker . . A Desperate Germany Blinks First
Originally Posted by Solasch
->
Don't you think it would have made a difference if UK negotiators had a better understanding of facts? Now they stepped to the negotiation table with ideas fed in the campaign about the great deal the UK would get. About cake to be had etc.Negotiating starts with preparing yourself. Davis, robinson, you name them, had no idea about what they would face.
The decision to Leave was the correct one.
Incompetence since then is not a reason to reverse that decision.
It is however a reason to get rid of our two party system.
19-08-2019, 05:10 PM
62
Re: EU Poker . . A Desperate Germany Blinks First
Originally Posted by swimfeeders
->
HiThe EU have done their figures, they are not insolvent.
Their budget deficit will be around 39 billion - they cannot fund their own committed projects without borrowing.
The £39 Billion included a two year transition period, we have already had an extension from March this year.
The 39 billion is written into the WA which will not change.
This brings the sum owing down to £32 Billion.
No - see above
Half of this is the remainder of the transition period, the other half , around £16 Billion, is the amount owing to the EU in the Withdrawal Agreement.
No - see above. The WA will not change.
The EU are confident that they can enforce this in the International Courts.
They are wrong - there is no legal commitment for us to pay anything,
We will have to wait and see.
The EU are imposing Full WTO Tariffs on day one of a No Deal.
What are "full WTO tarrifs" ??? the UK will be treated as a 3rd country under MFN rules. You can't apply a bound tarrif to one country and applied tarrifs to others - read your WTO rules.
The UK is not doing the same, we have already published our WTO Tariff Schedules, we are only imposing a minimal schedule.
This makes perfect sense to attract lower priced goods and products from other countries. We will not be tied to the EU anymore after 31st October.
The EU will be collecting a significant amount of money from increased tariffs from the UK.
Good for them - so they either continue to buy our products or they don't. You can't have it both ways. Most of our exports to the EU are for their manufacturing anyway - its their stuff, they would be in a better position if they moved manufacturing to the UK and took advantage of other FTA the UK has with other countries. Countries also inward and outward process for manufacturing and we can also take advantage of free ports and free towns in the UK to avoid tarrifs from any country.
The EU sums, the ones they are working on, result in a shortfall of around 500 million a year for each EU Country.
Most of those countries cannot afford 500 million a year extra - they don't have enough nett contributors. It is the EU tax payer that will be paying - look at the unemployment figures and you get an idea of the hit that their workers will take on. Expect more unemployment in the EU and more austerity.
This is peanuts in terms of overall budgets.
No - see above
The EU will have a larger short term hit due to their No Deal Preparations, the so called Mini Deals Boris is spouting off about.
No - they need a nett contributor and market similar to the UK to join the EU in order for them to stand still.
These are not Mini Deals, no input from the UK at all, they are short term measures designed to protect EU Exports to the UK for a time limited period specific to each type.
EU exports to the UK will be under review. We intend to cut VAT and corporation tax so it would be in their interest to manufacture more over here.
This is purely in the interests of the EU, not us.
Brexit is in the interest of the UK.
If there is one thing Brexit should have taught us, it is that the EU Politicians and Civil Servants are much better at looking after their own interests than ours are in looking after ours.
Yes - agreed
If we had Merkel and Macron negotiating on behalf of the UK and the EU had May negotiating on behalf of the EU, Brexit would have been very different.
Elmer Fudd would have been better than May.
Answers included above
19-08-2019, 05:19 PM
63
Re: EU Poker . . A Desperate Germany Blinks First
Originally Posted by swimfeeders
->
HiThe decision to Leave was the correct one.
Incompetence since then is not a reason to reverse that decision.
It is however a reason to get rid of our two party system.
Their understanding of reality was faulty. That understanding was based on what was exchanged in arguments during the campaign.
Losing a negotiation based on that faulty knowledge can only be interpreted as evidence that other decisions based on these false premises must be flawed.
19-08-2019, 05:24 PM
64
Re: EU Poker . . A Desperate Germany Blinks First
Originally Posted by Solasch
->
You mean, let you keep all the benefits, but no obligations? The unpleasantness is all yours.
.
For those of you still unable to understand why we should have no truck with the EU and it’s refusal to negotiate unless we agree to the thrice rejected Withdrawal Agreement. Let me introduce to the following for those who have not already read it, for you to get at least some understanding of why we would be completely and utterly mad to ever accept the terms of the above.
This is the letter that John Redwood wrote to the Attorney General during Treason May’s reign and did not even get the courtesy of a reply. These are also the questions that our biased Media have always refused to ask.: published May 10, 2019.
QUOTE
Dear Geoffrey,
Let me have another go at getting a reply from you concerning the way the Withdrawal Agreement stops us leaving the EU. Would you kindly confirm:
1/ If we sign this Treaty we will be locked into the EU and have to obey all its rules and pay all the bills it sends us for a period of at least 21 months, and probably for 45 months if we have not surrendered further to reach an exit agreement at the 21 month stage.
This would mean remaining in the EU for at least 5 years from the decision to leave and probably for 7 years. The EU would be able to legislate and spend against UK interests during this period whilst we would have no vote or voice in the matter.
2/ In order to “leave” in your terms at the 5 to 7 year stage, the UK will need to stay in the Customs Union and accept all Single Market rules and laws, unless the EU relented over the alleged Irish border issue. 3 years on and the EU has given no ground on the made up border issue, so why would they over the next two years? Isn’t the most likely outcome we would remain in the Single Market and Customs Union contrary to the government promise leaving meant leaving them in it’s referendum literature ?
3/ After the 45 month period fully in the EU, the UK would still face financial obligations under the Withdrawal Treaty. The bills will be decided by the EU and we will have to pay them. Any attempt to query them would be adjudicated by the EU’s own court! The longer we stay in the more the future bills are likely to be. The £39bn figure is likely to be a considerable underestimate.
4/ The Treaty creates a category of super citizens in the UK. EU nationals living in the UK when we “leave”. The EU will have their access to benefits guaranteed in a way the rest of us do not for their entire lifetimes. So we will not be taking back control of our benefit system.
I am also concerned about a number of Articles in the draft Treaty that expressly extend EU powers and jurisdiction for a further 4 to 8 years beyond our departure date after the 21 to 45 month delay.
Article 3 asserts EU legal jurisdiction over Gibraltar and British overseas territories in general terms, where disputes about the extent of EU control would fall via the Agreement under the European Court of Justice.
Article 5 reintroduces the powers of the European Court and enforces “sincere co-operation” on us as they do not want us impeding their plans for economic,monetary and political union.
Article 31 imposes social security co-ordination on us.
Article 39 gives special protection to EU citizens currently living in the UK from changes to social security for the whole of their lives, protection which the rest of us do not enjoy.
Article 51 applies parts of the VAT regime for an additional 5 years after the long transition envisaged in the Treaty.
Articles 92-3 imposes the EU state aids regime on the UK for 4 years beyond transition.
Article 95 imposes binding decisions by EU quangos and bodies for 4 years beyond transition.
Article 99 requires us to pay for access to records to handle issues over indirect tax where the EU keeps powers for 4 years beyond transition.
Article 127 applies the whole panoply of EU law throughout transition, including the right to legislate any way they wish against our interests and enforce it on us via the ECJ.
Article 130 prevents us taking back control of our fish any time soon. Doubtless more of our fishing rights would be given away trying to get an exit deal.
Article 135 allows them to send extra bills up to the end of 2028.
Article 140 imposes on us financial liabilities up to December 2020 and carry over into 2021.
Articles 144 and 150 prevent us getting back accumulated reserves and profits from our European Investment Fund and EIB shareholdings.
Article 143 imposes adverse conditions on us over pension and loan liabilities of the Union
Article 155 requires us to make continuing payments to Turkey under EU programme after we have left.
Article 158 gives the European Court continuing power for 8 years after transition.
Article 164 makes a Joint Committee an effective legislator and government over us.
Article 168. The exclusivity clause, denies us access to normal international law remedies in the event of disputes. Presumably this closes off use of the Vienna Convention to renounce an onerous Treaty where there has been a material change of circumstances.
Article 174 requires any arbitration to be governed by the ECJ judgements on the application of law in disputes.
The Protocol on Northern Ireland will require us to stay in the Customs Union with regulatory and legal alignment with the Single Market or split off a separate place called UK (NI) which will be governed differently to the rest of the UK on an island of Ireland basis.
There is much more I could object to. This is no Treaty to take back control, no Treaty for a newly independent nation. It does not quantify the financial liabilities, which are open ended and could be much larger than the low field £39bn Treasury estimate. We have little power to abate the bills and no power to abort the bills. It would probably result even in failure to take back control of our fishing grounds.
Mrs May needs to go back to the EU and explain why the UK people and Parliament have opposed this Treaty and ask them to think again if they want an agreement before we leave. She needs to make it clear we now intend to leave without signing the Withdrawal Agreement prior to the European Parliamentary elections.
Yours
John Redwood
UNQUOTE
My understanding of the above? You surely jest when you say we want all the benefits and no obligations?????
Theresa May and Robbins should be thrown in prison to rot for ever agreeing to this Surrender document.
What say you?
.
19-08-2019, 05:31 PM
65
Re: EU Poker . . A Desperate Germany Blinks First
Originally Posted by shropshiregirl
->
..
For those of you still unable to understand why we should have no truck with the EU and it’s refusal to negotiate unless we agree to the thrice rejected Withdrawal Agreement. Let me introduce to the following for those who have not already read it, for you to get at least some understanding of why we would be completely and utterly mad to ever accept the terms of the above.
This is the letter that John Redwood wrote to the Attorney Genera\l during Treason May’s reign and did not even get the courtesy of a reply. These are also the questions that our biased Media have always refused to ask.: published May 10, 2019.
QUOTE
Dear Geoffrey,
Let me have another go at getting a reply from you concerning the way the Withdrawal Agreement stops us leaving the EU. Would you kindly confirm:
1/ If we sign this Treaty we will be locked into the EU and have to obey all its rules and pay all the bills it sends us for a period of at least 21 months, and probably for 45 months if we have not surrendered further to reach an exit agreement at the 21 month stage.
This would mean remaining in the EU for at least 5 years from the decision to leave and probably for 7 years. The EU would be able to legislate and spend against UK interests during this period whilst we would have no vote or voice in the matter.
2/ In order to “leave” in your terms at the 5 to 7 year stage, the UK will need to stay in the Customs Union and accept all Single Market rules and laws, unless the EU relented over the alleged Irish border issue. 3 years on and the EU has given no ground on the made up border issue, so why would they over the next two years? Isn’t the most likely outcome we would remain in the Single Market and Customs Union contrary to the government promise leaving meant leaving them in it’s referendum literature ?
3/ After the 45 month period fully in the EU, the UK would still face financial obligations under the Withdrawal Treaty. The bills will be decided by the EU and we will have to pay them. Any attempt to query them would be adjudicated by the EU’s own court! The longer we stay in the more the future bills are likely to be. The £39bn figure is likely to be a considerable underestimate.
4/ The Treaty creates a category of super citizens in the UK. EU nationals living in the UK when we “leave”. The EU will have their access to benefits guaranteed in a way the rest of us do not for their entire lifetimes. So we will not be taking back control of our benefit system.
I am also concerned about a number of Articles in the draft Treaty that expressly extend EU powers and jurisdiction for a further 4 to 8 years beyond our departure date after the 21 to 45 month delay.
Article 3 asserts EU legal jurisdiction over Gibraltar and British overseas territories in general terms, where disputes about the extent of EU control would fall via the Agreement under the European Court of Justice.
Article 5 reintroduces the powers of the European Court and enforces “sincere co-operation” on us as they do not want us impeding their plans for economic,monetary and political union.
Article 31 imposes social security co-ordination on us.
Article 39 gives special protection to EU citizens currently living in the UK from changes to social security for the whole of their lives, protection which the rest of us do not enjoy.
Article 51 applies parts of the VAT regime for an additional 5 years after the long transition envisaged in the Treaty.
Articles 92-3 imposes the EU state aids regime on the UK for 4 years beyond transition.
Article 95 imposes binding decisions by EU quangos and bodies for 4 years beyond transition.
Article 99 requires us to pay for access to records to handle issues over indirect tax where the EU keeps powers for 4 years beyond transition.
Article 127 applies the whole panoply of EU law throughout transition, including the right to legislate any way they wish against our interests and enforce it on us via the ECJ.
Article 130 prevents us taking back control of our fish any time soon. Doubtless more of our fishing rights would be given away trying to get an exit deal.
Article 135 allows them to send extra bills up to the end of 2028.
Article 140 imposes on us financial liabilities up to December 2020 and carry over into 2021.
Articles 144 and 150 prevent us getting back accumulated reserves and profits from our European Investment Fund and EIB shareholdings.
Article 143 imposes adverse conditions on us over pension and loan liabilities of the Union
Article 155 requires us to make continuing payments to Turkey under EU programme after we have left.
Article 158 gives the European Court continuing power for 8 years after transition.
Article 164 makes a Joint Committee an effective legislator and government over us.
Article 168. The exclusivity clause, denies us access to normal international law remedies in the event of disputes. Presumably this closes off use of the Vienna Convention to renounce an onerous Treaty where there has been a material change of circumstances.
Article 174 requires any arbitration to be governed by the ECJ judgements on the application of law in disputes.
The Protocol on Northern Ireland will require us to stay in the Customs Union with regulatory and legal alignment with the Single Market or split off a separate place called UK (NI) which will be governed differently to the rest of the UK on an island of Ireland basis.
There is much more I could object to. This is no Treaty to take back control, no Treaty for a newly independent nation. It does not quantify the financial liabilities, which are open ended and could be much larger than the low field £39bn Treasury estimate. We have little power to abate the bills and no power to abort the bills. It would probably result even in failure to take back control of our fishing grounds.
Mrs May needs to go back to the EU and explain why the UK people and Parliament have opposed this Treaty and ask them to think again if they want an agreement before we leave. She needs to make it clear we now intend to leave without signing the Withdrawal Agreement prior to the European Parliamentary elections.
Yours
John Redwood
UNQUOTE
My understanding of the above? Theresa May and Robbins should be thrown in prison to rot for ever agreeing to this Surrender document.
What say you?
.
Along with any other cretin who feels this is a "good" deal.
19-08-2019, 05:32 PM
66
Re: EU Poker . . A Desperate Germany Blinks First
Originally Posted by shropshiregirl
->
..
For those of you still unable to understand why we should have no truck with the EU and it’s refusal to negotiate unless we agree to the thrice rejected Withdrawal Agreement. Let me introduce to the following for those who have not already read it, for you to get at least some understanding of why we would be completely and utterly mad to ever accept the terms of the above.
This is the letter that John Redwood wrote to the Attorney Genera\l during Treason May’s reign and did not even get the courtesy of a reply. These are also the questions that our biased Media have always refused to ask.: published May 10, 2019.
QUOTE
Dear Geoffrey,
Let me have another go at getting a reply from you concerning the way the Withdrawal Agreement stops us leaving the EU. Would you kindly confirm:
1/ If we sign this Treaty we will be locked into the EU and have to obey all its rules and pay all the bills it sends us for a period of at least 21 months, and probably for 45 months if we have not surrendered further to reach an exit agreement at the 21 month stage.
This would mean remaining in the EU for at least 5 years from the decision to leave and probably for 7 years. The EU would be able to legislate and spend against UK interests during this period whilst we would have no vote or voice in the matter.
2/ In order to “leave” in your terms at the 5 to 7 year stage, the UK will need to stay in the Customs Union and accept all Single Market rules and laws, unless the EU relented over the alleged Irish border issue. 3 years on and the EU has given no ground on the made up border issue, so why would they over the next two years? Isn’t the most likely outcome we would remain in the Single Market and Customs Union contrary to the government promise leaving meant leaving them in it’s referendum literature ?
3/ After the 45 month period fully in the EU, the UK would still face financial obligations under the Withdrawal Treaty. The bills will be decided by the EU and we will have to pay them. Any attempt to query them would be adjudicated by the EU’s own court! The longer we stay in the more the future bills are likely to be. The £39bn figure is likely to be a considerable underestimate.
4/ The Treaty creates a category of super citizens in the UK. EU nationals living in the UK when we “leave”. The EU will have their access to benefits guaranteed in a way the rest of us do not for their entire lifetimes. So we will not be taking back control of our benefit system.
I am also concerned about a number of Articles in the draft Treaty that expressly extend EU powers and jurisdiction for a further 4 to 8 years beyond our departure date after the 21 to 45 month delay.
Article 3 asserts EU legal jurisdiction over Gibraltar and British overseas territories in general terms, where disputes about the extent of EU control would fall via the Agreement under the European Court of Justice.
Article 5 reintroduces the powers of the European Court and enforces “sincere co-operation” on us as they do not want us impeding their plans for economic,monetary and political union.
Article 31 imposes social security co-ordination on us.
Article 39 gives special protection to EU citizens currently living in the UK from changes to social security for the whole of their lives, protection which the rest of us do not enjoy.
Article 51 applies parts of the VAT regime for an additional 5 years after the long transition envisaged in the Treaty.
Articles 92-3 imposes the EU state aids regime on the UK for 4 years beyond transition.
Article 95 imposes binding decisions by EU quangos and bodies for 4 years beyond transition.
Article 99 requires us to pay for access to records to handle issues over indirect tax where the EU keeps powers for 4 years beyond transition.
Article 127 applies the whole panoply of EU law throughout transition, including the right to legislate any way they wish against our interests and enforce it on us via the ECJ.
Article 130 prevents us taking back control of our fish any time soon. Doubtless more of our fishing rights would be given away trying to get an exit deal.
Article 135 allows them to send extra bills up to the end of 2028.
Article 140 imposes on us financial liabilities up to December 2020 and carry over into 2021.
Articles 144 and 150 prevent us getting back accumulated reserves and profits from our European Investment Fund and EIB shareholdings.
Article 143 imposes adverse conditions on us over pension and loan liabilities of the Union
Article 155 requires us to make continuing payments to Turkey under EU programme after we have left.
Article 158 gives the European Court continuing power for 8 years after transition.
Article 164 makes a Joint Committee an effective legislator and government over us.
Article 168. The exclusivity clause, denies us access to normal international law remedies in the event of disputes. Presumably this closes off use of the Vienna Convention to renounce an onerous Treaty where there has been a material change of circumstances.
Article 174 requires any arbitration to be governed by the ECJ judgements on the application of law in disputes.
The Protocol on Northern Ireland will require us to stay in the Customs Union with regulatory and legal alignment with the Single Market or split off a separate place called UK (NI) which will be governed differently to the rest of the UK on an island of Ireland basis.
There is much more I could object to. This is no Treaty to take back control, no Treaty for a newly independent nation. It does not quantify the financial liabilities, which are open ended and could be much larger than the low field £39bn Treasury estimate. We have little power to abate the bills and no power to abort the bills. It would probably result even in failure to take back control of our fishing grounds.
Mrs May needs to go back to the EU and explain why the UK people and Parliament have opposed this Treaty and ask them to think again if they want an agreement before we leave. She needs to make it clear we now intend to leave without signing the Withdrawal Agreement prior to the European Parliamentary elections.
Yours
John Redwood
UNQUOTE
My understanding of the above? Theresa May and Robbins should be thrown in prison to rot for ever agreeing to this Surrender document.
What say you?
.
Prison is a much too soft option for robbins and may.
19-08-2019, 05:51 PM
67
Re: EU Poker . . A Desperate Germany Blinks First
Originally Posted by Bread
->
Either way you are short of 39 billion .... On 1st November, the EU is insolvent. You must be proud of your unelected masters and the complete shambles they have made of negotiations. Who will make up the shortfall I wonder ? The German tax payer ?
19-08-2019, 05:52 PM
68
Re: EU Poker . . A Desperate Germany Blinks First
Originally Posted by Bread
->
Answers included above
No they are not, just your usual false information.
Unlike you, I have an understanding of WTO Rules and MFN Status.
We will be subject to EU Tariff Schedules, same as others.
EU Tariff Schedules are very high in relation to some of our exports, Lamb for example.
Secondly, the EU has Non Tariff Barriers, for example quotas for lamb which are tariff free.
These quotas are already taken up by other Third Countries and the UK will not be getting a proportion of these.
19-08-2019, 05:59 PM
69
Re: EU Poker . . A Desperate Germany Blinks First
Originally Posted by swimfeeders
->
HiNo they are not, just your usual false information.
Unlike you, I have an understanding of WTO Rules and MFN Status.
We will be subject to EU Tariff Schedules, same as others.
EU Tariff Schedules are very high in relation to some of our exports, Lamb for example.
Secondly, the EU has Non Tariff Barriers, for example quotas for lamb which are tariff free.
These quotas are already taken up by other Third Countries and the UK will not be getting a proportion of these.
You should check out the news about USA beef exports into the EU and the recent Mercusor agreement.
You haven't bothered to read up in tarrifs either. You said the EU would impose its highest tariffs in the uk and you now change your mind after I picked you up on it.
I dont believe a word you say on here anymore.
19-08-2019, 06:03 PM
70
Re: EU Poker . . A Desperate Germany Blinks First
Originally Posted by shropshiregirl
->
..
For those of you still unable to understand why we should have no truck with the EU and it’s refusal to negotiate unless we agree to the thrice rejected Withdrawal Agreement. Let me introduce to the following for those who have not already read it, for you to get at least some understanding of why we would be completely and utterly mad to ever accept the terms of the above.
This is the letter that John Redwood wrote to the Attorney General during Treason May’s reign and did not even get the courtesy of a reply. These are also the questions that our biased Media have always refused to ask.: published May 10, 2019.
What say you?.
With this deal you get a soft brexit. Without the deal it will be a hard brexit. Just think about it.
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