30-10-2020, 04:21 PM
61
Re: Anybody seen Barmier ???
Originally Posted by 7779311
->
Hallo Zaphod,thank you for taking the effort of explaining all that to me. Dont worry, I know or at least strongly believe that most UK people do not hate all EU citizens. How could they.
I fully agree with you on the degree of the EU being a federalist & beaurocratic monster. Sadly I have no idea how to change that. Sometimes I think it would be wise to vote for a DEEXIT in order to maybe force the EU to change for the better. Still I am not sure if that would help.
About hating the EU again: very often I read about "the frogs", "the krauts" and "the Germans wanting to rule the world again". Moreover many commentators write that they dont want the French to catch the fish in British waters (although having payed for the rights to do so). So this is not against some leading EU politicians but against the people of some countries.
I think the truth is like so often somewhere in the middle.
And only signify brotherly love!!😁😁
Donkeyman! 😇😇
30-10-2020, 04:46 PM
62
Re: Anybody seen Barmier ???
Originally Posted by Zaphod
->
I would like to correct you there by clarifying how I'm sure many of us feel, and I know it's not possible to speak for everybody but here are both my own feelings and my impression of the more-general UK sentiment:No, those who hate the EU so much certainly do not hate all of the 450 million inhabitants.
We are sensible enough to distinguish between ordinary people and an increasingly federalist politial union.
The hated ones are the politicians who enthuse over this federalism and police the enforcement of the "union", not everyday people.
Much the same as we hate some of our own politicians BTW, so don't presume those EU politicos to be somehow picked out for special treatment.
It is the EU that is disliked or hated, depending upon the individual of course.
Not the EU's citizens.
And not Europe.
If the EU had remained a union encouraging trade things would probably have continued unopposed.
But no, the EU decided to morph into a federalist monster intent upon increasing it's own power at the expense of its own citizens.
Those of us wanting our independence are anti-EU, not anti-Europe.
There is quite a difference.
Originally Posted by 7779311
->
Did I miss something? I thougt that the last offer of an extension is weeks or even months ago?Your negotiation team does not have to accept offers. Why does B.Johnson not set a deadline and leave as soon as it is over?
My only explaination is that M.Barnier does not want to be blamed if he/the EU quits the negotiations. I wish they would broadcast the talks so that we could hear what they really say. I am so sick of interpreting small bits of information from the media and hearing about "intensified talks". What exactly have they been intensifying several times? Did they talk about their hobbies or the weather on year ago?
One more or less final deadline is middle of November as we all know but I find it shameful that they could not reach a decision earlier!
30-10-2020, 05:00 PM
63
Re: Anybody seen Barmier ???
Originally Posted by Percy Vere
->
I can speak from personal experience. I lived and worked in Rome for over 10years. The majority of my colleagues were Italian born and bred from all over the country. They were great to work and socialise with, as were my neighbours. The politicians and bureaucrats, on the other hand, made my life a bloody misery. Even though I was reasonably fluent, I had to take a colleague with me every time I had to resolve a problem with some minor official because of some minor mistake I'd made on some form or other. (The Rome city council still owes me around €10k in overpaid local taxes and I've fat chance of getting it back.) We've also spent many a week meandering through France on our summer holidays driving back to England. In general the French people are very nice and willing to let me at least try out my schoolboy French on them but, the closer you get to Paris, well ...Don't you think we are too?
If only we could do something.
30-10-2020, 05:21 PM
64
Re: Anybody seen Barmier ???
Originally Posted by Donkeyman
->
You mention the word HATE Lotta numbers ??Where did you get that from??
We hate being rooked and we hate having things filched from us?
We hate having rules forced onto us!!
And worst of all we hate that our "leaders" of the time connived in
allowing the our sovreignty to be sucked slowly from us??
But hate the people?? NO!!
Except for the Frogs, of course!
30-10-2020, 05:34 PM
65
Re: Anybody seen Barmier ???
Originally Posted by Zaphod
->
I would like to correct you there by clarifying how I'm sure many of us feel, and I know it's not possible to speak for everybody but here are both my own feelings and my impression of the more-general UK sentiment:No, those who hate the EU so much certainly do not hate all of the 450 million inhabitants.
We are sensible enough to distinguish between ordinary people and an increasingly federalist politial union.
The hated ones are the politicians who enthuse over this federalism and police the enforcement of the "union", not everyday people.
Much the same as we hate some of our own politicians BTW, so don't presume those EU politicos to be somehow picked out for special treatment.
It is the EU that is disliked or hated, depending upon the individual of course.
Not the EU's citizens.
And not Europe.
If the EU had remained a union encouraging trade things would probably have continued unopposed.
But no, the EU decided to morph into a federalist monster intent upon increasing it's own power at the expense of its own citizens.
Those of us wanting our independence are anti-EU, not anti-Europe.
There is quite a difference.
Well explained.
30-10-2020, 05:49 PM
66
Re: Anybody seen Barmier ???
Originally Posted by 7779311
->
About hating the EU again: very often I read about "the frogs", "the krauts" and "the Germans wanting to rule the world again". Moreover many commentators write that they dont want the French to catch the fish in British waters (although having payed for the rights to do so). So this is not against some leading EU politicians but against the people of some countries.I think the truth is like so often somewhere in the middle.
Depending upon where in the UK you are we hate Geordies or Liverpudlians or Mancumuans or, well, take your pick really.
Most frequently there's nothing really nasty about it; it's more of a "dig" or a jibe.
And again you're referring mostly to politicians rather than everyday people - we know that Macron for example is just asserting his authority (or trying to) to prove that he still holds onto some power, especially compared to Mutty.
Fishermen haven't paid the UK for the right to fish in our waters; they may have a licence but - like most licences - they don't last forever.
And would any licence be perchance an EU one?
I'd personally like to see evidence of where any French fisherman had paid the UK to fish in UK waters.
As you very astutely say though, the truth is undoubtedly somewhere in the middle.
But the middle covers one heck of a lot of ground.
Just to finish: one thing really surprises me.
And that is that (so far) the EU make it seem that they would rather sacrifice many of their own citizens to hardship than make it at least an amicable way for a country to leave.
30-10-2020, 06:04 PM
67
Re: Anybody seen Barmier ???
Originally Posted by Zaphod
->
Ah wellthat's just in our nature, calling others derogatory names - don't pay it too much notice.Depending upon where in the UK you are we hate Geordies or Liverpudlians or Mancumuans or, well, take your pick really.
Most frequently there's nothing really nasty about it; it's more of a "dig" or a jibe.
And again you're referring mostly to politicians rather than everyday people - we know that Macron for example is just asserting his authority (or trying to) to prove that he still holds onto some power, especially compared to Mutty.
Fishermen haven't paid the UK for the right to fish in our waters; they may have a licence but - like most licences - they don't last forever.
And would any licence be perchance an EU one?
I'd personally like to see evidence of where any French fisherman had paid the UK to fish in UK waters.
As you very astutely say though, the truth is undoubtedly somewhere in the middle.
But the middle covers one heck of a lot of ground.
Just to finish: one thing really surprises me.
And that is that (so far) the EU make it seem that they would rather sacrifice many of their own citizens to hardship than make it at least an amicable way for a country to leave.
It is maybe a matter of definition but the EU spent quite some time and effort to negotiate the WA. For me that seems amicable if I am not mistaken.
An alternative could have been to present the divorce bill, say "you are out" and close all doors without further negotiation.
Maybe we were just not prepared for one country leaving and made mistakes. Next time it will be easier I am sure (unless the next will be DE, FR or IT).
I wish you all a nice weekend as I am logging off for today.
30-10-2020, 06:22 PM
68
Re: Anybody seen Barmier ???
Originally Posted by Zaphod
->
Ah wellthat's just in our nature, calling others derogatory names - don't pay it too much notice.Depending upon where in the UK you are we hate Geordies or Liverpudlians or Mancumuans or, well, take your pick really.
Most frequently there's nothing really nasty about it; it's more of a "dig" or a jibe.
And again you're referring mostly to politicians rather than everyday people - we know that Macron for example is just asserting his authority (or trying to) to prove that he still holds onto some power, especially compared to Mutty.
Fishermen haven't paid the UK for the right to fish in our waters; they may have a licence but - like most licences - they don't last forever.
And would any licence be perchance an EU one?
I'd personally like to see evidence of where any French fisherman had paid the UK to fish in UK waters.
As you very astutely say though, the truth is undoubtedly somewhere in the middle.
But the middle covers one heck of a lot of ground.
Just to finish: one thing really surprises me.
And that is that (so far) the EU make it seem that they would rather sacrifice many of their own citizens to hardship than make it at least an amicable way for a country to leave.
Thats because the commission is just a glorified civil service. They don't care about the citizens, their political project is far more important, besides, if they need more money they just take it from the member states anyway.
30-10-2020, 08:00 PM
69
Re: Anybody seen Barmier ???
Originally Posted by 7779311
->
I am afraid that I do not understand what you mean.It is maybe a matter of definition but the EU spent quite some time and effort to negotiate the WA. For me that seems amicable if I am not mistaken.
An alternative could have been to present the divorce bill, say "you are out" and close all doors without further negotiation.
Maybe we were just not prepared for one country leaving and made mistakes. Next time it will be easier I am sure (unless the next will be DE, FR or IT).
I wish you all a nice weekend as I am logging off for today.
You don't understand my belief that the EU would rather sacrifice their own citizens rather than amicably seek a deal?
Well for a start, not agreeing a basic trade deal will harm many thousands of EU employees across a number of countries, and Germany is likely to be worst-hit.
I say this because anything interrupting the free movement of goods and the imposition of tariffs will cause a decrease in trade, obviously at the expense of jobs.
The big problem for the EU is that the UK can source replacement trade where it wishes; it is far more problematic for a ponderous union to effect the change required to both source and sell elsewhere than the current options.
As for the EU spending time & negotiating the WA - surely you see that this works both ways?
Not only that but here in the UK we saw not only a dismissive and often derogatory tone taken by the EU at the same time that (it strongly appears) some of our own politicians were actively colluding with the EU in an attempt to deny voters their Brexit.
As an example: there was nothing amicable about the EU dictating the manner in which Brexit would progress, insisting upon a withdrawal agreement before discussing the practicalities like trade.
That's what led to the difficulties we all face now as time is running out and the fault lays purely and simply with the EU and our own devious politicians of the time - but the 2019 election proved the British public's determination and at the same time rid us of many of these devious politicians.
Please don't make the mistake of thinking that - if there eventually is no deal between the UK and the EU - the WA will remain in force.
The likelihood is that the UK would annul it completely, and there is much written about this to suggest it to be entirely feasible and completely within the laaw.
Then you should consider the very real possibility of the UK suing the EU for not acting in good faith regarding Brexit, and this has the very real possibility of becoming a very huge sum which the EU would be obliged to pay the UK.
I hope that provides food for thought since, I assure you, this is a very likely outcome for the EU should a deal with the UK not be reached.
In years to come, how highly do you think your average EU citizen would regard the EU after seeing not only many thousands of jobs lost across the union but in addition a compensatory payment of many billions of Euros being paid to the UK purely because of a few EU politician's and their deliberate attempted persecution of a former member state?
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