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29-11-2019, 12:30 PM
11

Re: Progress will be the death of us all.

Originally Posted by d00d ->
This progress you talk about, it changes direction, that's a good thing surely.

Our cars, fridges etc. are safer, less polluting and components are more likely to be recycled than ever before.
Yes that's true d00d, but as third world countries become first world countries the demand for all these things becomes greater and cancels out the recycling aspects.
And it takes energy to recycle.

Take glass for example, although some glass can be recycled (cullet) when producing glass bottles, only 10% of cullet can be added to the mix of newly made glass.
There are many different types of metal and materials in a car, some of which cannot be recycled, so all must be separated before recycling can take place.

Making things 'safer' does not mean more 'Earth Friendly' and in some cases quite the opposite. Take washing machines for example.
Killing bacteria and getting clothes clean is the main function of a washing machine.
In order to save energy, and with the addition of chemicals, it is possible to wash at low temperatures. But where do all these extra chemicals end up?

Furthermore, most machines these days are 'cold fill' and use electricity to heat up the water. But there is hot water available from the house domestic system, probably running on gas and far more efficient. It's certainly cheaper when you consider a unit of gas costs around 12 pence and a unit of electricity cost twice that at 26 pence.
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29-11-2019, 12:55 PM
12

Re: Progress will be the death of us all.

We don’t have to be that clean !

Why do we need to kill all bacteria ?

I saw a programme on the TV about washing machines .
One scientist said you can get the same level of cleanliness with the machine set at a low temperature with no detergent for 15 minutes .

I always use a short cycle especially for most things that are not really dirty just worn.

I don’t understand why people who have things on for long cycles for things that have only been worn once unless you are in a filthy job .

And how many really are ?

We just have to be a bit less fussy .


If you have access to a garden and it’s a nice day it’s good to air things like towels in the sun and the wind makes them smell lovely .
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01-12-2019, 12:45 AM
13

Re: Progress will be the death of us all.

Our blessing and curse is that we are a highly innovative species, able to solve almost any problem, right down to altering the limiting factors to population growth. That innovation is making life amazing, and also accelerating its demise as we know it.

You know me; I tend to look at the entire system. Sooner or later, something will crash our population, as it tends to do with all species, to reach homeostasis. That's just the way of things. The shame of it is that we really are acting like an invasive species that is overtaking every possible habitat choking out everything resource in our wake, at an accelerating rate.

99% of all species that ever lived are extinct. 40% of extant species will be extinct by 2050. Higher order species just don't tend to last very long because of the resources they require.

It's not the products we are using, as you have mentioned, it's the number of people demanding them, and in capitalistic societies, growth of consumer demand is the only way to keep economies and governments financially afloat.

If we can't get people to carpool or drive fewer miles, I don't think we are going to get people to voluntarily control the sizes of their families - which is the only thing that will work.

All I know is that I hope we are chipping our music, art, ideas, philosophy, mathemetics, and messages into rock, because it's going to take another 150M years for advanced life to find another place to pop up out of the tree of life once we go.

In the meantime, what a great experience mankind is having! Let's be as good to the world as we can, and remember that we are just temporary guests.
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01-12-2019, 01:23 AM
14

Re: Progress will be the death of us all.

Back to add that an excellent book on this topic is the Pulitzer Prize winner, The Sixth Extinction by Elizabeth Kolbert.
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01-12-2019, 05:13 PM
15

Re: Progress will be the death of us all.

Originally Posted by OldGreyFox ->
Furthermore, most machines these days are 'cold fill' and use electricity to heat up the water. But there is hot water available from the house domestic system, probably running on gas and far more efficient. It's certainly cheaper when you consider a unit of gas costs around 12 pence and a unit of electricity cost twice that at 26 pence.
That's something that concerns me.
We have such a machine. Actually, I'd be surprised if they are not all like that now.

Presumably, the manufacturers must see the change as some sort of advantage, but I'm afraid I can't understand it.
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01-12-2019, 06:37 PM
16

Re: Progress will be the death of us all.

Most domestic washers are cold fill for two reasons, firstly the development of washing powdere/ liquids, to clean at low temperatures, secondly, manufacturers did away with hot fill because most hot water systems are some distance from the kitchen( usually where the washing machine is located) by the time the hot water reaches the washer it’s filled anyway so very little hot water makes it to the m/c, also money can be saved by not fitting a hot water valve...
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01-12-2019, 08:24 PM
17

Re: Progress will be the death of us all.

Originally Posted by Primus1 ->
Most domestic washers are cold fill for two reasons, firstly the development of washing powdere/ liquids, to clean at low temperatures, secondly, manufacturers did away with hot fill because most hot water systems are some distance from the kitchen( usually where the washing machine is located) by the time the hot water reaches the washer it’s filled anyway so very little hot water makes it to the m/c, also money can be saved by not fitting a hot water valve...
Thank you. That makes a lot of sense.
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01-12-2019, 09:37 PM
18

Re: Progress will be the death of us all.

Can you explain what you mean by ' altering the limiting factors
for population growth ' Surfamum?
Regards bDonkeyman!
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01-12-2019, 09:52 PM
19

Re: Progress will be the death of us all.

Originally Posted by d00d ->
This progress you talk about, it changes direction, that's a good thing surely.

Our cars, fridges etc. are safer, less polluting and components are more likely to be recycled than ever before.
Trouble is dOOd the appliances they make now dont last 50% as
long as they used to?
I remember the average car could last for 20yrs, and car batteries
commonly lasted 8yrs or more?
I believe they call it planned obsolescence, hope l spelled that right?
Donkeyman!
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02-12-2019, 11:29 AM
20

Re: Progress will be the death of us all.

Originally Posted by Primus1 ->
Most domestic washers are cold fill for two reasons, (1) firstly the development of washing powdere/ liquids, to clean at low temperatures, (2) secondly, manufacturers did away with hot fill because most hot water systems are some distance from the kitchen( usually where the washing machine is located) by the time the hot water reaches the washer it’s filled anyway so very little hot water makes it to the m/c, (3)also money can be saved by not fitting a hot water valve...
That's three Primus......

(1) By producing stronger chemicals and even adding supplements to work at lower temperatures to merely take the place of what hot water does naturally, to kill germs and get stuff clean, are we not further polluting our sewer and water systems? There are even natural methods for cleaning clothes in suitably hot water without the addition of washing powders. 'Lakeland' among others, produce a ball that can be added to the wash without the need for chemicals.

(2) In my experience all machines have a heating element and thermostatic control, even in the days of the old 'twin tub'. So even if the hot water had a long way to travel and had cooled down to some extent, it would still be far cheaper to heat up luke warm water than freezing cold water taken directly from the mains.

(3) By not including a 'Hot Fill' option.....Cheaper for who Primus?
Washing Machines still sell for the same price or are even more expensive.
So I suspect the saving in money is to increase the profits of the greedy manufacturers, and not a thought for saving the consumer money or the machines impact on the world.
 
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