Re: Who is God?

In everyday life, yes to a large extent I'd agree with you. But this is a thread in the discussions forum, and I think all the posts being made here are in the spirit of engagement and debate. In fact it's precisely in that spirit of dialogue and discussion that I'm about to respond to a few of Arthur's points. None of this is meant to come across as controversial. What people believe is entirely up to them and they should be free to do so.

If you loosen the definition of the word religion to anything that has a following, then I'm afraid every political party, every sport, every web forum, in fact just about everything becomes a religion - and the word risks becoming so broad as to become meaningless. Sure, we might joke that football or X-Factor is "like a religion" to some people - but let's be honest, we never mean it in any serious, meaningful way. And atheism certainly doesn't have anything like the kind of 'following' that religions, political parties and even certain sports and TV programmes enjoy.

You might say that because atheism concerns the matter of God's existence, then that makes it different to all those other things. But that ingredient still doesn't make it a religion. What it actually is is a philosophical position based on reason. Unlike religion, it requires no worship, it demands no adherence to set-in-stone rules, and it involves no belief in the supernatural. It is merely a statement about what one doesn't believe (A-theism = lack of belief in God).

If you insist on calling it a religion, then atheism is a religion in the same way that "not fishing" is a hobby, or "bald" is a hair colour, or the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament is a nuclear organisation - in a very 'precisely the opposite' kind of way! Do you believe in Thor? Zeus? Wotan? Kali? I think it was Richard Dawkins who pointed out that all of us are atheists of almost all the gods that mankind has ever invented - it's just that some of us go one god further.

I recommend you look up the origin of the word "Easter"…

As for Christmas - it's not our fault that we get time off work - but since we do, well... we might as well enjoy it! The fact of the matter is that you no more have to believe in Christianity to have a good time at Christmas than you have to believe in Santa Clause. (Do you have to believe in the origins of Halloween to have fun on October 31st? Of course you don't.) For my part, if I celebrate anything about December 25th, it's the winter equinox and getting to the other side of the shortest day. Which coincidentally is what the December 25th festival was originally about before Christianity hijacked it two millenia ago, as they did with the pagan festical of 'Eostre'.

That's certainly not true in the UK, and hasn't been for a while. And of the people who do get married in church, how many of them do it for the fairy tale aspect of it - the big white wedding - rather than for genuinely religious reasons? My gut feeling is quite a lot!

Understandable, but what does that really tell you? All it tells me is that when people are alive, they try not to think too hard about their funeral arrangements or if they do, they want whatever's easiest for the surviving relatives, so the conventional arrangement is chosen by default. The default arrangement is a church - for historical reasons, and because it's where nearly all the graveyards and crematoria are located. When someone dies, when mourners are at their lowest ebb, who wants the added hassle of seeking out alternative arrangements? Very few, since few of us have the energy. Conformity and convention thrive in such circumstances.

Just some thoughts, because it's a subject I've thought quite hard about. It should go without saying that nothing personal is intended, and I enjoy reading alternative points of view.

Re: Who is God?

Why do you find that so strange, Gabi? This is a thread in the discussions section, and it's a topic of discussion. This particular topic happens to come with huge public consequences, so it's a matter of relevance to all of us, believer and non-believer alike. It doesn't strike me as strange in the slightest.

As for the question of God's existence (or the original question of "Who is God") this is one that a great many of us non-believers have considered very carefully too, you know.

Re: Who is God?

I find it strange that for something you don't believe in you can talk for England about it. I'm sure you have considered it very carefully but it's only your opinion at the end of the day or what you have read. The bible has been around much longer than any other book and is still being read every day.

Re: Who is God?

Did you mean "What" is God, rather than "Who?" I think God is many things to many people and is worshipped in many ways throughout the globe.

Personally I'm an atheist, but having said that, I do believe there is good (god) and evil (devil) in all of us and I believe that to be part of being human. The world has to balance with opposites like night and day, black and white, man and woman, the Ying and the Yang. What I'm saying is that, if you have an absolute faith and conviction that there is a God, then you can NOT deny that he has an opposite whom is known as Devil.

How could we understand the goodness of people like Ghandi, Lao Tze, Mother Theresa and many others, if it were not for the evil of folk like Hitler, Rasputin, the Kray twins, Myra Hindley and Ian Brady etc.

I did get married in church with the big white wedding, but that was 40 years ago, and it was because it was what my mother wanted, having been denied that when she got wed.

Religious holidays mean nothing to me but of course I take them off work because we close down during those periods of time.

I do believe that the powers of good and evil exist because we see them every day, so they can not be challenged and we can't not believe in them. There are genuinely good people on this planet and seriously evil ones and those concepts are within all of us. Some people go to church and yet can be nasty, vindictive, cunning, salacious and every other negative adjective you can think of, whilst some people who do not go to church and are non-believers are extremely good people and do good deeds for little or no reward.

Go back in our history and you will find that every single war that has ever been waged has been down to religion of some description or another.

I is a born again atheist.

Re: Who is God?

The counter-argument here is that it's not just an opinion. It is fact derived from the product of understanding of knowledge and observation without bias or preconception. The bible on the other hand is a found less collection of stories of unverifiable origin , written at a time many hundreds of years after supposed events, translated from several languages when no direct literal translation exists, written with hyperbole to make them more engaging, and in the King James version, only selected texts were used because other gospels were contradictory in nature.

Given this, it always amazes me how people think it's literally true.

Re: Who is God?

Well I can only repeat the reasons I just gave you, Gabi, and add that it's a fascinating topic as it touches on the most fundamental questions of existence and our place in the universe. On a more general point, I care about the matter of truth and honesty, and if I read something I believe to be false (such as one of the points you made below), don't be surprised if I respond.You are then more than welcome to challenge any points I or anyone else makes that you disagree with - and so on. Maybe some of us learn something, maybe not. But that's what discussion is all about: having the freedom to exchange thoughts and ideas, as opposed to being handed a set-in-stone dogmatic truth from a book or a person in authority, which is beyond challenge and question.

The Sanskrit Hymns which form the Hindu religious text Rig-Veda have been around much longer than the Bible - since about 4000BC. After that, the Epic of Gilgamesh - recorded on 12 clay tablets from Ancient Mesopotamia believed to date back to 2150-2000BC. But of course if you've only been raised in the UK and you've not looked at all religions independently from an equal distance, then it's understandable that you might not have known that. It's probably worth adding though, that even if the Bible really was the oldest book, that wouldn't make its contents true, and certainly wouldn't make it the "word of God".

Re: Who is God?

Not only the Epic of Gilgamesh, which is a very valid point, but what of the ancient Babylonian texts, written on clay tablets even earlier (I think) which not one person on this planet has yet to decipher?

The bible isn't the word of God at all. It's the word of people.

I believe that the bible was written by the scholars of the day to explain to those that sought the "true" origins of their existence. It is no more true than a book of fairy tales written by the Brothers Grimm or Hans Christian Anderson, but which gave those who sought the "truth" something to cling onto and understand, in the simplest way.

If you believe in the entirety of the bible, then you have to believe in Adam and Eve, which is pure nonsense. Adam and Eve had two sons - Cain and Able. Cain killed Able and was cast out into the wilderness and years later he came back and brought with him a wife. Where did she come from? The bible doesn't explain that. Or do people just believe the bits they want to?

I have nothing against the bible, the talmud, the koran, or any other biblical works, and if it does people good to read it and believe in it, and it makes their lives better, then that's a good thing, but break it down into components and very little of it makes any sense.

Re: Who is God?

Earlier I said :---I don't mind what others think about religion, that is entirely up to them.
All I can say is I believe in who I think is my Almighty creator, if when I die I am wrong, it will not matter, if I am right then it might.

I stand by that !!
Amen

Re: Who is God?

Maybe it's just as simple as sussing out if we are one complete being, or a physical apparition plus a spirit, and of course we need to know why we have evolved in such a different direction from other mammals, and are afforded time to make philosophical judgments instead of hunter gathering?

Re: Who is God?

Barry, Jimmy, somehow I was expecting a lot of preaching from the Bible, Koran etc with the odd atheist remarks thrown in and people doubting one another, hence the remark 'no falling out just plain facts if you have them'.
'Facts' which are not there to prove or disprove the question, as I know it.

Being a devote believer it was just to add a bit of fun to a seriously taken subject and to see if anyone had a scientific explanation etc.

It was not to be taken seriously as the wink should have indicated indicated. Sorry if it has caused anyone any anxiety.

Azz, a very good answer and quite thought provoking but do not go into Ants and Mechanics, that is a subject which takes a lot of explaining and is beyond the grasp of most none engineering people. Have you seen an Ant colony and how it is constructed using normal physics as we know it. Can you lift 20 times your own body weight?, Their running speed is equal to a man running at the speed of a Horse. How do they know about temperatures, they have to so that the Queen ants eggs will hatch out, if it is to cold or to warm the eggs is useless. If you have seen Richard Attenboroughs 'Life in the Undergrowth'' then you will have seen that they can walk on water.

Enough, Ants are more complicated than women.

Still some very thoughtful answers.