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22-09-2018, 09:25 PM
101

Re: Utter Humiliation for Theresa May!

Originally Posted by JBR ->

Well, we're under threat now from the EU.
We are not under threat from the EU, it's the other way around. The only threat to us is ourselves.
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22-09-2018, 09:26 PM
102

Re: Utter Humiliation for Theresa May!

Originally Posted by AnnieS ->
I didn't mean on here, I meant on Facebook etc where I know people in real life .
But we're all real-life people...

well, except for perhaps a couple or so!
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22-09-2018, 11:40 PM
103

Re: Utter Humiliation for Theresa May!

Originally Posted by AnnieS ->
I would not have held a referendum without having a plan B for leaving. But if you make a decision like that then you should be able to back it up and not run away and hide.
He fought the case for remaining. Why should he have prepared an outcome for losing? As an analogy, if you decided to have some friends over for a steak dinner, would you also have a chicken pie in the oven as a back up??

Originally Posted by AnnieS ->
If he wasn't strong enough to lead the government without giving in to extremists in his own party then he should have stepped down as leader rather than being elected for the second time on a condition.
But it wasn't about extremists in his own party. It was about the will of the electorate.

Five things to bear in mind (IMHO):

1/. If he hadn't conceded to hold a referendum, then there'd no doubt still be an ongoing and increasing outcry for one, with the usual outcry of "not listening" to the populace.

2/. The manifesto, on which he was elected, promised one. If this was considered to be grotesquely unpopular, then his party would surely have been voted out of office.

3/. He was confident that the referendum result would be to remain in the EU, and the result no doubt came as a surprise.

4/. Evidence for the rising passion for the democratic right of the populace in their demand for a referendum was clear, by the number of people who "gave enough of a toss to bother to vote"

5/. Since he was a clear remainer, then any subsequent negotiations would have been blighted and called half hearted at best.

As I've posted in debate with twink, there was never any need for him to have devised an alternative plan due to a potential unnecessary cost and the fact that the timescale of invoking Article 50 was up to "us". Personally, I think his decision to resign was the right one given his own views on the matter.

If the result had gone the other way, then it's highly likely he'd still have his job.
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23-09-2018, 12:08 AM
104

Re: Utter Humiliation for Theresa May!

Originally Posted by Dextrous63 ->
But it wasn't about extremists in his own party. It was about the will of the electorate.

Five things to bear in mind (IMHO):

1/. If he hadn't conceded to hold a referendum, then there'd no doubt still be an ongoing and increasing outcry for one, with the usual outcry of "not listening" to the populace.

2/. The manifesto, on which he was elected, promised one. If this was considered to be grotesquely unpopular, then his party would surely have been voted out of office.

3/. He was confident that the referendum result would be to remain in the EU, and the result no doubt came as a surprise.

4/. Evidence for the rising passion for the democratic right of the populace in their demand for a referendum was clear, by the number of people who "gave enough of a toss to bother to vote"

5/. Since he was a clear remainer, then any subsequent negotiations would have been blighted and called half hearted at best.
I agree, but perhaps I could just mention that the real reason for Cameron calling the referendum was the pressure exerted on him by the up and coming UKIP.

UKIP may never have managed to have an MP in Parliament, but there's no denying that they were a very effective pressure group.

And could well still be so if we don't achieve a hard Brexit!
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23-09-2018, 12:41 AM
105

Re: Utter Humiliation for Theresa May!

Originally Posted by Dextrous63 ->
He fought the case for remaining. Why should he have prepared an outcome for losing? As an analogy, if you decided to have some friends over for a steak dinner, would you also have a chicken pie in the oven as a back up?? .
Brexit is not chicken pie or Steak. But if you give your friends a choice of chicken pie and steak at a meal then you should of course be ready for both should you not? If you promise steak but there is no steak available and you don't even know what steak is then you are pretty much a pathetic host.


Originally Posted by Dextrous63 ->
But it wasn't about extremists in his own party. It was about the will of the electorate.
que?


Originally Posted by Dextrous63 ->
Five things to bear in mind (IMHO):

1/. If he hadn't conceded to hold a referendum, then there'd no doubt still be an ongoing and increasing outcry for one, with the usual outcry of "not listening" to the populace.

2/. The manifesto, on which he was elected, promised one. If this was considered to be grotesquely unpopular, then his party would surely have been voted out of office.

3/. He was confident that the referendum result would be to remain in the EU, and the result no doubt came as a surprise.

4/. Evidence for the rising passion for the democratic right of the populace in their demand for a referendum was clear, by the number of people who "gave enough of a toss to bother to vote"

5/. Since he was a clear remainer, then any subsequent negotiations would have been blighted and called half hearted at best.

As I've posted in debate with twink, there was never any need for him to have devised an alternative plan due to a potential unnecessary cost and the fact that the timescale of invoking Article 50 was up to "us". Personally, I think his decision to resign was the right one given his own views on the matter.

If the result had gone the other way, then it's highly likely he'd still have his job.
1. who cares
2. who cares?!
3. just proves he was totally out of touch.
4. that's propaganda for you. In particular social media fake news.
5. He wasn't a clear remainer, I think he was a closet leaver. He was rubbish at selling remain.

I don't understand your last point. What was right for him is not what I am interested in. He should have done his duty and seen through his poor decision. He should have been obliged by virtue of his office to see through such a monumental change.
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23-09-2018, 12:43 AM
106

Re: Utter Humiliation for Theresa May!

Originally Posted by JBR ->
I agree, but perhaps I could just mention that the real reason for Cameron calling the referendum was the pressure exerted on him by the up and coming UKIP.

UKIP may never have managed to have an MP in Parliament, but there's no denying that they were a very effective pressure group.

And could well still be so if we don't achieve a hard Brexit!
It was nowt to do with ukip but everything to do with pressure in his own party. He was too weak to ride that.
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23-09-2018, 02:05 AM
107

Re: Utter Humiliation for Theresa May!

Originally Posted by AnnieS ->
Brexit is not chicken pie or Steak. But if you give your friends a choice of chicken pie and steak at a meal then you should of course be ready for both should you not? If you promise steak but there is no steak available and you don't even know what steak is then you are pretty much a pathetic host.... + the rest of your reply
OK Annie, I take your points on board and respect but obviously disagree with you.

It just seems to me that you've justified the need for him to resign though In your view, he was weak, too malleable in terms of internal party politics and too out of touch with the electorate (although I strongly dispute this) and solely interested in some kind of self aggrandisement.. Given the outcome of the referendum and given your own appraisal of his character traits as a "leader", was he really the best person to try and lead the UK through the subsequent Brexit process?

Your desire to see him punished for his failings by "forcing" him to see the process through seems, IMHO, to potentially be against the country's best interest. Specifically, how could it be possible for a weak, malleable, out of touch and purely self interested leader to be the best person for the job?

More or less by definition, his sole act of decency was to resign. Why berate it?

Or, am I missing your point entirely
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23-09-2018, 06:39 AM
108

Re: Utter Humiliation for Theresa May!

Fair enough Dextrous. You make a convincing argument for getting shot of him!
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23-09-2018, 09:24 AM
109

Re: Utter Humiliation for Theresa May!

Originally Posted by AnnieS ->
Fair enough Dextrous. You make a convincing argument for getting shot of him!
Sorry if I'd brow beaten you to death on this
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23-09-2018, 11:19 AM
110

Re: Utter Humiliation for Theresa May!

Originally Posted by AnnieS ->
It was nowt to do with ukip but everything to do with pressure in his own party. He was too weak to ride that.
You're entitled to your opinion, of course.
 
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