25-08-2019, 10:55 AM
51
Re: Hard border or no hard border ?
Originally Posted by Ray Cathode
->
Ok, there's probably an obvious answer but I'll ask anyway. What's the difference between the NI/Ireland border and the Norway/Sweden border and does this offer a solution acceptable to NI and the EU?
The Swedish-Norwegian border is 1630 km long. There are 10 approved border crossings and all of them have customs controls on at least one side of the border; 30 other crossings may be used private cars or by commercial vehicles which are pre-cleared. The two countries are part of the Nordic free travel area which predates the EU (so that bit is a little similar to the UK / Ireland situation).
We have a 500 km border with at least 275 crossings and the number of commuters is conservatively estimated at 30,000 a day but some believe it reaches 45,000. That doesn’t count a vast fleet of delivery vans from breadmen to motor factors who cross every day.
Norway is not an EU member but it is in the single market and pays handsomely for the privilege. It is not in the customs union but it is in the European Economic Area which might be considered a super-free trade agreement. Broadly, it means that all those customs officers are just looking out for a few products, mostly in food and agriculture.
Most of the technology deployed on the border, including the CCTV on all 40 passable roads, is there to combat drug smuggling; in the first year of deployment 400 kg of narcotics were seized. So was a massive haul of contraband alcohol. The technology has little or nothing to do with tariff controls on HGVs, which is still done on the good old queue-and-form basis.
This is not the example we need for the Ireland border issue.
25-08-2019, 11:04 AM
52
Re: Hard border or no hard border ?
Originally Posted by gascony
->
Yet the problem will arise with a no deal exit and the UK falling into world trade on WTO basis. But not quite that simple as the UK government has committed to an open border in Ireland. The problem is that we can't have an open border, no checks and still claim we treat our trading relationship with the EU as we do our trading relationship with other countries. There is no imminent technology or smart solution - that is a myth. Other countries will look at this open border, the lack of checks for conformity and the very leaky applications of tariffs and call foul. So don't look to the past for false comfort. Expect there to be complaints and actions against the UK for breaking WTO rules. That is the challenge. Or expect the UK to quietly move the border to the Irish Sea. That is the easy answer.
You continually use the word WE Gascony? Which WE are
you refering to?
Uk has many times stated that WE will NOT build infrastructure
on the NI/RPI border, therefore it must be the eu that has
concerns about the post brexit border, therefore it is a
problem for them to solve imo??
Regards Donkeyman!
25-08-2019, 11:33 AM
53
Re: Hard border or no hard border ?
Originally Posted by Donkeyman
->
You continually use the word WE Gascony? Which WE areyou refering to?
Uk has many times stated that WE will NOT build infrastructure
on the NI/RPI border, therefore it must be the eu that has
concerns about the post brexit border, therefore it is a
problem for them to solve imo??
Regards Donkeyman!
25-08-2019, 12:01 PM
54
Re: Hard border or no hard border ?
Originally Posted by gascony
->
Why do you accept UK commitments that you like but are utterly sceptical of other commitments? I’d seriously doubt the government’s resolve if (1) they think they can blame someone else and get away with it; (2) if the numbers in Westminster change and they don’t need the DUP. Both sides, UK and EU will need to establish border infrastructure. Or shift the border to the Irish Sea. Mmmm which seems most likely?
for the eu, and therefore was baproblem for the eu to solve
Gascony, that is the second time l have said it!
So far eu has refused to discuss it, but keep putting the onus
on uk and refuse to accept any uk proposals at all?
Imo the question of public safety and secority is a red
herring, as if there was a border set up as part of a settlement
it would be a customs border, not a military one?
This issue is the the eu's ace card to confound uk's
aspirations and was designed and used to do so!
Regards Donkeyman!
25-08-2019, 12:13 PM
55
Re: Hard border or no hard border ?
Ok someone tell me what the difference will be post Brexit to prior. At the moment people come into Dublin and if they are not eu citizens are checked and counted. They can then come into UK via NI. After Brexit it seems to be being suggested anyone can come in so why would Dublin stop their checks ? Makes no sense to me. And goods currently anything can be tracked to its source and often is. Will the technology suddenly stop working on 31st October?25-08-2019, 12:29 PM
56
Re: Hard border or no hard border ?
Originally Posted by Donkeyman
->
I suggested that the so called border problem ws a problemfor the eu, and therefore was baproblem for the eu to solve
Gascony, that is the second time l have said it!
So far eu has refused to discuss it, but keep putting the onus
on uk and refuse to accept any uk proposals at all?
Imo the question of public safety and secority is a red
herring, as if there was a border set up as part of a settlement
it would be a customs border, not a military one?
This issue is the the eu's ace card to confound uk's
aspirations and was designed and used to do so!
Regards Donkeyman!
25-08-2019, 02:32 PM
58
Re: Hard border or no hard border ?
Originally Posted by Muddy
->
Why would it be the Irish have been sending their pigs on round trips to the north to get the EEC subsidy for decades?It was called the Irish pig carousel.
And it was before the GFA, because it involved the smuggling (south) of the pigs/cattle that went north to cash the subsidy.
25-08-2019, 09:22 PM
59
Re: Hard border or no hard border ?
Originally Posted by gascony
->
How can an open EU border, across which goods and people can freely move without checks, verifications, tariffs or hinderance, not be a problem for the UK? Or indeed for other WTO countries?
Because the checks are done away from the border and all the customs paperwork is done by electronic pre clearing.
Go to Southampton or Felixstowe ... look how we move stuff in and out of the country there. You might learn something
25-08-2019, 09:27 PM
60
Re: Hard border or no hard border ?
Originally Posted by Julie1962
->
Ok someone tell me what the difference will be post Brexit to prior. At the moment people come into Dublin and if they are not eu citizens are checked and counted. They can then come into UK via NI. After Brexit it seems to be being suggested anyone can come in so why would Dublin stop their checks ? Makes no sense to me. And goods currently anything can be tracked to its source and often is. Will the technology suddenly stop working on 31st October?
The whole of Ireland is outside the Schengen area so passports are checked in and out and also when people come across to the rest of the UK (and EU)
After Brexit this will not change Ireland and the UK will remain outside of Schengen.
Within the ireland of Ireland there is the common travel area where people can move freely once they have entered Ireland in the north and south.
|
|
