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17-09-2020, 06:11 PM
111

Re: Extinction the facts

Originally Posted by Muddy ->
And getting smaller by the minute !
They are in fact vast but are fast diminishing.

The areas you mention are uninhabitable for good reasons.
Several are deserts
The interior of Australia is the dry and nothing can live without water .
Patagonia is not human free a lot of people emigrated there from Wales and it’s land is used mainly for sheep .
Indeed they are. Siberia is being mined, the Arctic is being mined, they are even planning to mine on the Moon! Nothing is sacred (as demonstrated by the recent Rio Tinto fiasco).

There is now fracking left right and centre. All to satisfy increased demand from increased populations. In 1950 there were approx 2.5 billion people on the planet. Now we have almost 7.8 billion.

It's easy to say there are so many areas we have not yet meddled in but ignore the effecs of the vast areas we have meddled and how our meddling impacts on the un-meddled. Nature has no invisible wall between one and t'other.

It's interesting to note that the wildfires in California are caused by lightning strikes. Is this increasing because storm activity is increasing? It certainly feels like they are (they are near enough running out of names) and isn't ^storm activity linked to climate change?
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17-09-2020, 06:30 PM
112

Re: Extinction the facts

Originally Posted by JBR ->
I'd say that Marge and I are in very much the same boat, with the exception that Marge does all the cooking.
There is, of course, a simple reason for that: I can't cook (well, I can heat up a tin of beans, if really pushed).

I do do my part, though. Only yesterday I mended our toaster which continued heating even after popping up. Just a disconnected cable.

Yes, we both have our specialisms!
I immediately think of how the making bad cups of tea ruse stops people ever asking you to make one....mending the toaster is a natural male evolution of the "man and fire" relationship going back to cave days. Hence it's always the man's job to light the BBQ (often more than one man is needed)

I wonder whether a man who couldn't cook invented the dishwasher to get out of having to do the washing up?! I hope that if you have a dishwasher you load it up because that is a job men generally enjoy. I have a colleague who even had a photo instruction for his family of how the dishwasher should be loaded.
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17-09-2020, 06:43 PM
113

Re: Extinction the facts

Originally Posted by bakerman ->
I only meant that compared to the Panda Bear, Orangutans are fast reproduction

I disagree with you about where Orangutans could live. Thousands of the uninhabited islands in and around Borneo/Sumatra/Indonesia/Philippines are indeed rain forests.

In any event Borneo/Sumatra ARE islands.

Suggestion: Anyone interested in preserving wild populations of Orangutans could start a movement to buy up an entire island, of sufficient size, in the area mentioned above, and turn it into a Orangutan wild preserve.

I suspect that if working closely with a few big names, (like Jane Goodall of chimpanzee fame) and a sympathetic local government, the island could be bought for very little money.

I don't know anything about how money is raised for such a project but I do know that there are dozens and dozens of well known global wildlife societies who could get you started and perhaps even join in.

I could go on and on but you get my thinking.

PS: unlike the African elephant, no-one is poaching Orangutans. So, little, if any, money would need to be spend on armed game rangers to protect the Orangutans. I can see how a small research team could live on the island to observe and study them
The islands that you describe and I know the area well having lived there for 22 years are too small for Orangutans .
They are not usually rainforest and have a different ecosystem .
Orangutans are poached all the time . Even thought it is illegal .
Mothers are killed so the babies can be raised as pets .
They often live in dreadful conditions
Of course when they get big they are a problem .
As they are ( if healthy incredibily strong )
They are treated appallingly
They are ( I hate to tel you this ) even chained down used for sexual abuse .
There are a several rescue and rehabilitation centres for orangutans and do great work .
One well known one is in Sarawak Malaysia Borneo’
It’s extremely hard to rehabilitate an Orangutan .
The reason being that a baby Orangutan is born helpless and is taught how to survive by its mother .
If it has been kept in a crate all of its formative years like a human child in the same circumstances it is damaged . It has all sorts of physical and psychological problems . Some never are able to return to the wild they remain at the sanctuary for ever.
The main enemy is however deforestation they simply have less and less room to live . They are a large animal and need room .
Anyone who has seen these super intelligent beings cannot but doubt they are our very near relatives .
It’s so sad to see them hurt and killed .
Please watch the short video on this link .
I know this happens because I have seen it with my own eyes ,

https://theanimalspage.com/orangutan-mother-killed/
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17-09-2020, 07:37 PM
114

Re: Extinction the facts

Originally Posted by AnnieS ->
I immediately think of how the making bad cups of tea ruse stops people ever asking you to make one....mending the toaster is a natural male evolution of the "man and fire" relationship going back to cave days. Hence it's always the man's job to light the BBQ (often more than one man is needed)

I wonder whether a man who couldn't cook invented the dishwasher to get out of having to do the washing up?! I hope that if you have a dishwasher you load it up because that is a job men generally enjoy. I have a colleague who even had a photo instruction for his family of how the dishwasher should be loaded.
We do have a dishwasher and it is indeed my job to load it and unload it. However, let me put you straight on one thing: I certainly do not enjoy it!

Having said that, I can concur that it is essential to load the dishwasher correctly and efficiently.

I'd also like to add that Marge does the cooking because it's something she really enjoys doing - and she's very good at it. Her favourite retirement activities are art/painting, gardening and cooking.

I really must leave this discussion now because I seem to have upset some members and I really don't like to do that.
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17-09-2020, 08:29 PM
115

Re: Extinction the facts

Originally Posted by bakerman ->
Very well said, OGF. I remember well driving across Idaho, and I saw a sign that said, 'Next gas, 107 miles'. For that 107 miles, there was not a single building of any kind. Only things to see were vast pine forests and wild, crashing rivers.

One of my favorite places to escape the city, and do a little trout fishing, lies in the mountains of California. When I go there, I do not see a single human for weeks at a time. Nothing but tall pine trees and wild animals, living as they have done for thousands of years.
It sounds brilliant bakerman, and I would love the opportunity to visit such a wild and beautiful place, far away from the influence of mankind....Such a place that doesn't exist in Muddy's shrinking world....
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17-09-2020, 08:48 PM
116

Re: Extinction the facts

Why do all the 'Save the Planet' crackpots assume that if you don't subscribe to their unachievable theories, we all go around wasting energy, throwing plastic into the sea, not caring about the future of our offspring, and burying our heads in the sand......

I care passionately about the environment in which I live. Every lightbulb in my house is an energy saving LED. I recycle every morsel of my waste, and I never use my car if it's within my walking range (which is quite far!) I do not own a dishwasher or microwave, my walls are all filled with insulation, and my loft is well lagged. I regularly go out into the country on 'Litter Picks' and collect shopping for several people who are most at risk from Covid.

In passing I might consider the extinction of animals in other countries, and the plight of the indigenous people, I will feel sorry for them for a couple of minutes, and then thank the Lord for being born in blighty and drop off to sleep.
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17-09-2020, 10:38 PM
117

Re: Extinction the facts

Originally Posted by Muddy ->
The islands that you describe and I know the area well having lived there for 22 years are too small for Orangutans .
They are not usually rainforest and have a different ecosystem .
Orangutans are poached all the time . Even thought it is illegal .
Mothers are killed so the babies can be raised as pets .
They often live in dreadful conditions
Of course when they get big they are a problem .
As they are ( if healthy incredibily strong )
They are treated appallingly
They are ( I hate to tel you this ) even chained down used for sexual abuse .
There are a several rescue and rehabilitation centres for orangutans and do great work .
One well known one is in Sarawak Malaysia Borneo’
It’s extremely hard to rehabilitate an Orangutan .
The reason being that a baby Orangutan is born helpless and is taught how to survive by its mother .
If it has been kept in a crate all of its formative years like a human child in the same circumstances it is damaged . It has all sorts of physical and psychological problems . Some never are able to return to the wild they remain at the sanctuary for ever.
The main enemy is however deforestation they simply have less and less room to live . They are a large animal and need room .
Anyone who has seen these super intelligent beings cannot but doubt they are our very near relatives .
It’s so sad to see them hurt and killed .
Please watch the short video on this link .
I know this happens because I have seen it with my own eyes ]
Thank you, Muddy. I was totally unaware that Orangutans are poached in order to obtain the babies as pets. Outrageous ! There seems no end to mans cruelty.

However, I still think you are wrong about islands in that area NOT being rain forested. In any event, rain forests, IMO, are not necessary for Orangutans. They, of course, require the proper fruit trees and in sufficient numbers. Look at it this way. Zoos, across the globe, maintain healthy populations of Orangutans and those zoos are definitely not rain forests.

PS: The world famous San Diego Zoo usually has a steady population of 5-7 adult Orangutans. Since the 1920's there have been 28 successful live births at the San Diego Zoo. Their keepers keep the Orangutans healthy and happy on a steady diet of mostly: oranges, grapes, and bananas with the occasional pile of flowers, tender leaves, and bark. So, Muddy, you see that it is entirely possible to maintain a healthy population of Orangutans OUTSIDE of a rain forest.

If you put healthy Orangutans on an empty JUNGLE island AND that island had sufficient fruit trees, I think the Orangutans would be as happy as pigs in a puddle.
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18-09-2020, 05:57 PM
118

Re: Extinction the facts

Originally Posted by OldGreyFox ->
It sounds brilliant bakerman, and I would love the opportunity to visit such a wild and beautiful place, far away from the influence of mankind....Such a place that doesn't exist in Muddy's shrinking world....
Yes, indeed. The American west is mostly a wild and totally untouched wilderness. True, it can SEEM that it is overcrowded, if one does not leave the big cities such as Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle etc. But I assure everyone that a man can easily disappear into the wilderness quite quickly if he is of a mind to do so.


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18-09-2020, 06:49 PM
119

Re: Extinction the facts

I don’t Bakerman doubt that America has many beautiful wild lands .
I would like to think that that wildlife have a home where the buffalos roam and the deer and the antelope play .

The truth is the buffalo are being pushed out by cattle ranchers ( except perhaps on Ted Turners place ) in places like Montana because of mankind’s insatiable desire for meat .


In California cattle are reared in huge stark pens for the same reasons.


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19-09-2020, 12:30 AM
120

Re: Extinction the facts

Originally Posted by Muddy ->
I don’t Bakerman doubt that America has many beautiful wild lands .
I would like to think that that wildlife have a home where the buffalos roam and the deer and the antelope play .

The truth is the buffalo are being pushed out by cattle ranchers ( except perhaps on Ted Turners place ) in places like Montana because of mankind’s insatiable desire for meat .


In California cattle are reared in huge stark pens for the same reasons.
Fear not, Muddy. Today there are aprox 350,000 American Buffalo in the west. There are numerous herds on Federal land, State land and Native American land. Many of those herds are UNTOUCHABLE. They can never be pushed out or even hunted. PS: exception, the Native Americans manage their own herds and they, on occasion, cull out a tiny percentage to better manage those herds.

I shudder to think what would happen to anyone who shot a buffalo in Yellowstone National Park. PS: the wolves in Yellowstone seem to keep the herds in check at a normal rate for the wild country.

As for the vast numbers of cattle in America, I see no problem. But, to be honest, I'm a hard core carnivore.
Rib-Eye steak... oh, yum.
 
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