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weedeek
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Dumfries, Scotland
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11-12-2020, 01:02 PM
1

Scotland and the EU

In response to the usual "hypocrisy" accusations regarding support for an independent Scotland in the EU, I'm donning my armour-plated plaid and offering up this-
The UK and EU are two different bodies, with different histories, and different functions. Scotland’s relationship with both is entirely different.
The UK is a political entity, composed of four home nations.The EU is a large trading bloc, enabling ease of movement for work, trade, etc., as well as uniting former enemies in a common purpose of mutual benefit.
Why many in Scotland want to regain independence is down to a number of reasons, one of the main ones being the degree of democratic deficit in the UK. Comparing the EU and UK with regards to that, those against claim Scotland would have very little say in the EU if they were independently members, ignoring the fact that at present, they have NO influence, for instance Scotland voted against leaving the EU but have no choice in the matter. Same goes for claims about Sterling, etc.
This basically means that independence from the UK enables Scotland, for good or for bad, to be free to run its own affairs, and choose its own direction. With regards to the EU, it means that we are free to be…free. We COULD make individual trade agreements with other countries, but with 63 million in the UK as opposed to 500 million in the EU, we would be small potatoes, regardless of other claims.
This means that there is no contradiction between wishing to leave the UK, but remain in the EU as a respected member nation.
There you are, get stuck into that. I know what to expect, but in the end, insulting someone is proof of one’s own ignorance. It is a sign that the insulting party has nothing constructive to add and has run out of ideas. Anytime a person insults someone instead of responding to the argument itself, they lose the debate by default.
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Zaphod
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11-12-2020, 01:26 PM
2

Re: Scotland and the EU

Strangely enough, the Shetlands think the same about Scotland - and would rather be a Crown Dependency (like Jersey) than be ruled by the SNP.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/13...nd-islands-spt


When you and your beloved SNP can answer the simple question of what currency you will use if you gain independence and can produce a viable budget for independence you might garner a bit more respect, weedeek.

As that is not possible you're not doing anything more than moaning and dreaming; it's akin to peering with your nose pressed against the shop window at that *whatever* that you can't now and will probably never be able to afford.

The funniest (or maybe the saddest) part of this is that - unless people really lack the intelligence or are indeed just trolling - these things are obvious!
That isn't insult; it is fact.
And if you disagree you will be able to answer the questions I posed first as proof, won't you?

Over to you.
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11-12-2020, 01:28 PM
3

Re: Scotland and the EU

Originally Posted by weedeek ->
The UK is a political entity, composed of four home nations. The EU is a large trading bloc, enabling ease of movement for work, trade, etc., as well as uniting former enemies in a common purpose of mutual benefit.
Isn't the EU a political entity? Doesn't the UK enable ease of movement, work and trade between its four countries? And didn't the UK unite former enemies?

Originally Posted by weedeek ->
Why many in Scotland want to regain independence is down to a number of reasons, one of the main ones being the degree of democratic deficit in the UK. ...for instance Scotland voted against leaving the EU but have no choice in the matter.
Londonistan also voted against leaving the EU, and many more people live there than live in Scotland. You don't hear them whingeing about losing the vote every time they open their mouths.

Originally Posted by weedeek ->
With regards to the EU, it means that we are free to be…free. We COULD make individual trade agreements with other countries, but with 63 million in the UK as opposed to 500 million in the EU, we would be small potatoes, regardless of other claims.
Free? You mean you wouldn't be under the rules and regulations imposed by Brussels? You could make trade agreements with other countries without asking for permission from Brussels? And you'd be far more heavily outnumbered by other countries (500m vs. 63m) who may not have the same interests as you? You wouldn't be small potatoes; you'd be smaller than peas!

Originally Posted by weedeek ->
There you are, get stuck into that. I know what to expect, but in the end, insulting someone is proof of one’s own ignorance. It is a sign that the insulting party has nothing constructive to add and has run out of ideas. Anytime a person insults someone instead of responding to the argument itself, they lose the debate by default.
Oh dear. I do hope I haven't been too insulting in pointing out the disparities in your argument. Well, no more insulting than you have been anyway!
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11-12-2020, 01:32 PM
4

Re: Scotland and the EU

Originally Posted by weedeek ->
In response to the usual "hypocrisy" accusations regarding support for an independent Scotland in the EU, I'm donning my armour-plated plaid and offering up this-
The UK and EU are two different bodies, with different histories, and different functions. Scotland’s relationship with both is entirely different.
The UK is a political entity, composed of four home nations.The EU is a large trading bloc, enabling ease of movement for work, trade, etc., as well as uniting former enemies in a common purpose of mutual benefit.
Why many in Scotland want to regain independence is down to a number of reasons, one of the main ones being the degree of democratic deficit in the UK. Comparing the EU and UK with regards to that, those against claim Scotland would have very little say in the EU if they were independently members, ignoring the fact that at present, they have NO influence, for instance Scotland voted against leaving the EU but have no choice in the matter. Same goes for claims about Sterling, etc.
This basically means that independence from the UK enables Scotland, for good or for bad, to be free to run its own affairs, and choose its own direction. With regards to the EU, it means that we are free to be…free. We COULD make individual trade agreements with other countries, but with 63 million in the UK as opposed to 500 million in the EU, we would be small potatoes, regardless of other claims.
This means that there is no contradiction between wishing to leave the UK, but remain in the EU as a respected member nation.
There you are, get stuck into that. I know what to expect, but in the end, insulting someone is proof of one’s own ignorance. It is a sign that the insulting party has nothing constructive to add and has run out of ideas. Anytime a person insults someone instead of responding to the argument itself, they lose the debate by default.

The biggest single market for Scotland though is the UK in terms of your exports and imports. The EU is nowhere near that, even though it has 450 million people and the UK a mere 65 million.

The SNP are only gunning for EU membership to support their single party policy of Scottish independence. In the 1980's, they were dead against EU membership until they realised that nobody would vote for Scotland being isolated, on its own and without a union to support it. So they changed tack and pushed the independent Scotland / EU membership route.

That failed in 2014 even though the UK was an EU member and before the green lobbyists took over. At the time, the SNP were saying they would be self-sufficient with North Sea Oil which would be at over (I think) $167 a barrel and they could have Scotlan living off that alone to keep them afloat. But then it was pointed out that only one time in the history of the world has North Sea Oil been ever the figure they said (something like $167 a barrel) . It was a big fat lie.....

Then Sturgeon said that Scotland would keep the pound as the currency and then use the Euro - another impossibility because first, the Bank of England would never allow a 3rd country to control its own interest rates with its currency and second, Scotland can't have its own tax laws and autonomy to control it.... ever !

So, just a reminder of where Scotland is ...

It is in the ...
UK Customs Union
UK Single market
UK common travel area
UK common currency
UK common taxation system
UK army, navy, Air Force and other common military functions
UK legal system
UK centralised treasury
UK national health service

And even though Scotland is devolved from many UK wide laws so you can self govern in law, health taxation, education etc, you want to leave all of that, for this "independence" to give control to another union which is not finished, in that it ...

Doesn't have a common currency (not all member states have the Euro)
Doesn't have a centralised taxation system or treasury
Has open borders but will insist on a hard customs border in Scotland
Does not have a national health service
Does not have a military, army or Air Force
You would trade with your biggest trading partner (the UK) un much less favourable terms than you are now
Would not have any devolution or autonomy.

Bearing in mind

1. You don't qualify for EU ascension because you have the biggest budget deficit in the EU

2. You have no currency

3. You can't join as a member of another union - you must leave first and then ask to join. In the case of Croatia is took 30 years.

4. The people already voted against it

5. You would be handing back control of just about everything you have, as a devolved nation of the UK and not achieving any form of independence at all.
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11-12-2020, 01:33 PM
5

Re: Scotland and the EU

Originally Posted by JBR ->
Oh dear. I do hope I haven't been too insulting in pointing out the disparities in your argument. Well, no more insulting than you have been anyway!
That's an SNP tactic.

When faced with facts and honesty, insist that they are lies and that you are being insulting.



Which is what I'm expecting from weedeek after seeing the responses so far ........ instead of their answering the basics.
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11-12-2020, 02:48 PM
6

Re: Scotland and the EU

Originally Posted by weedeek ->
Why many in Scotland want to regain independence is down to a number of reasons, one of the main ones being the degree of democratic deficit in the UK. Comparing the EU and UK with regards to that, those against claim Scotland would have very little say in the EU if they were independently members, ignoring the fact that at present, they have NO influence, for instance Scotland voted against leaving the EU but have no choice in the matter. Same goes for claims about Sterling, etc.
.
This says it all, for me!

Quit the UK because we can't have independance and then join the EU where not only would they have no indepenance but no Democracy, either.

Mind you, the EU would relish having someone to whip the UK about, and the fun they could have with border posts between UK & Scotland!

Don't even think about the EU grabbing Scottish fishing rights!

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JBR
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Cheshire, UK
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11-12-2020, 03:12 PM
7

Re: Scotland and the EU

Originally Posted by Tedc ->
This says it all, for me!

Quit the UK because we can't have independance and then join the EU where not only would they have no indepenance but no Democracy, either.

Mind you, the EU would relish having someone to whip the UK about, and the fun they could have with border posts between UK & Scotland!

Don't even think about the EU grabbing Scottish fishing rights!

Well they'd have to do it without the Shetland and Orkney waters!
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Percy Vere
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11-12-2020, 04:23 PM
8

Re: Scotland and the EU

Originally Posted by Bread ->
The biggest single market for Scotland though is the UK in terms of your exports and imports. The EU is nowhere near that, even though it has 450 million people and the UK a mere 65 million.

The SNP are only gunning for EU membership to support their single party policy of Scottish independence. In the 1980's, they were dead against EU membership until they realised that nobody would vote for Scotland being isolated, on its own and without a union to support it. So they changed tack and pushed the independent Scotland / EU membership route.

That failed in 2014 even though the UK was an EU member and before the green lobbyists took over. At the time, the SNP were saying they would be self-sufficient with North Sea Oil which would be at over (I think) $167 a barrel and they could have Scotlan living off that alone to keep them afloat. But then it was pointed out that only one time in the history of the world has North Sea Oil been ever the figure they said (something like $167 a barrel) . It was a big fat lie.....

Then Sturgeon said that Scotland would keep the pound as the currency and then use the Euro - another impossibility because first, the Bank of England would never allow a 3rd country to control its own interest rates with its currency and second, Scotland can't have its own tax laws and autonomy to control it.... ever !

So, just a reminder of where Scotland is ...

It is in the ...
UK Customs Union
UK Single market
UK common travel area
UK common currency
UK common taxation system
UK army, navy, Air Force and other common military functions
UK legal system
UK centralised treasury
UK national health service

And even though Scotland is devolved from many UK wide laws so you can self govern in law, health taxation, education etc, you want to leave all of that, for this "independence" to give control to another union which is not finished, in that it ...

Doesn't have a common currency (not all member states have the Euro)
Doesn't have a centralised taxation system or treasury
Has open borders but will insist on a hard customs border in Scotland
Does not have a national health service
Does not have a military, army or Air Force
You would trade with your biggest trading partner (the UK) un much less favourable terms than you are now
Would not have any devolution or autonomy.

Bearing in mind

1. You don't qualify for EU ascension because you have the biggest budget deficit in the EU

2. You have no currency

3. You can't join as a member of another union - you must leave first and then ask to join. In the case of Croatia is took 30 years.

4. The people already voted against it

5. You would be handing back control of just about everything you have, as a devolved nation of the UK and not achieving any form of independence at all.
Bread, you missed the loss of thousands of jobs in and around Faslane shipyard when the MoD pull all the subs out of there.
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Bread
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11-12-2020, 04:44 PM
9

Re: Scotland and the EU

Originally Posted by Percy Vere ->
Bread, you missed the loss of thousands of jobs in and around Faslane shipyard when the MoD pull all the subs out of there.
Oh yeah.

Good one Percy !
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11-12-2020, 06:17 PM
10

Re: Scotland and the EU

Some time ago OPEC greatly reduced the price of a barrel of oil, today it stands at 46.74 dollars per barrel. As a result many North Sea oil platforms have become uncompetitive and closed down their operations. Many platforms have been recovered and towed to Norway where they will be dismantled.
There is such a surplus of oil that they are running out of places to store it after transport, especially air transport, has been severely trimmed back due to covid. They are practically giving oil away.... It is unlikely that North Sea Oil production will be profitable in the forseeable future.
As one door closes weedeek! another one slams shut in your face....

https://e360.yale.edu/features/as-no...rs-controversy



One of the world’s largest areas of offshore oil and gas exploitation, in Europe’s North Sea, is closing down. Over the next few years, thousands of wells will be plugged and hundreds of giant production platforms removed from the storm-tossed sea, in one of the world’s largest and most expensive exercises in industrial decommissioning.

Good riddance? Three cheers for the cleanup? Not so fast. Some ecologists are pleading for the rigs to be left behind, at least in part, to support the marine life that has grown up around them. And they fear the dismantling could disturb toxic drilling waste on the seabed that nobody plans to remove.

How this plays out could yield important lessons for the decommissioning of other offshore oilfields from the coasts of California and Brazil to the South China Sea and, potentially, the Arctic.

Two decades ago, the North Sea was one of the world’s largest sources of oil, pumping up 6 million barrels a day. That figure is now down to 1.5 million barrels, and the industry is turning to the task of decommissioning the estimated 600 production platforms in the North Sea. The British sector alone contains 470 of them, along with roughly as many other offshore installations, plus 10,000 kilometers of pipelines and 5,000 wells. The British industry expects to carry out more than 200 decommissions between now and 2025.
 
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