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Donkeyman
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15-01-2021, 09:12 PM
31

Re: U boats and EU rules !!

Originally Posted by Zaphod ->
Which one are we rejoining?


The WTO arose out of GATT of which the UK was one of the founder members.
The idea was sound but times have changed and it's become (like other things) too political; it's difficult to keep politics out of even supposedly-independent organisations when so many different countries want their say in how it should work.
That's why the WTO is in trouble now.

NATO.
Oh boy, where to begin there ....... well let's be brief and just say firstly that it's never been particularly successful.
Then it too faces political problems as (again) each member country has their own agenda, and these are often at odds with each other.

Why are we members?
Because we helped to start them off.
Personally what I would hope for is that we can now encourage reform, because it is very badly needed.
Maybe it's as good a time for reform as any too.
Oh, l thought the WTO was in trouble because its founder member
and main funder ( USA) was miffed because it did'nt get any
preferential treatment anymore??
And NATO is a similar story , especially lsince the formation of the
EU, as the funding for NATO was only being supported by about
three of the EU members,USA,. UK, & one of the Nordic nations ?
Germany i and France as the main benificiaries of NATO paying
little or nothing towards the upkeep was particularly irksome to
Trump as he believed he was paying for Europe's protection from
Russia!! Justifiably l believe?
Although Europe contends that USA via NATO was really protecting
it's self?? Both sides have a point l think ! But currently l believe
the USA view is the right one!!
Unless of course the EU is planning to combine with Russia in the
long term ???
Thanks for your info though, l find it interesting to hear other points
of view ???

Donkeyman! 🤗🤗
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Zaphod
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16-01-2021, 01:28 PM
32

Re: U boats and EU rules !!

Originally Posted by Donkeyman ->
Oh, l thought the WTO was in trouble because its founder member
and main funder ( USA) was miffed because it did'nt get any
preferential treatment anymore??
And NATO is a similar story , especially lsince the formation of the
EU, as the funding for NATO was only being supported by about
three of the EU members,USA,. UK, & one of the Nordic nations ?
Germany i and France as the main benificiaries of NATO paying
little or nothing towards the upkeep was particularly irksome to
Trump as he believed he was paying for Europe's protection from
Russia!! Justifiably l believe?
Although Europe contends that USA via NATO was really protecting
it's self?? Both sides have a point l think ! But currently l believe
the USA view is the right one!!
Unless of course the EU is planning to combine with Russia in the
long term ???
Thanks for your info though, l find it interesting to hear other points
of view ???

Donkeyman! 🤗🤗
You're only saying what I said but from a slightly different angle.

Which is that the organisations have turned political; the largest countries pay more for membership and then - bacause of that - they think they run the show.
That's not how any independent organisation should work, fairly obviously.
What follows is a lengthy summary - not anywhere near as lengthy as it should really be, but sometimes just enough will have to suffice.

If you want a shorter version see my earlier post rather than reply "TLDR".




Even you have fallen into the trap Donkeyman: the USA is/was one of 23 countries that formed the original GATT for example.
23.
The USA might be the largest signatory country, but size doesn't imply either leadership or responsibility.
If the organisations (either NATO or WTO) are to be truly independent and so support member countries equally, then both leadership and responsibility should be shared equally.

Regarding the USA blocking the appointment of WTO judges: given that previously these have been so lenient with China and that this has at least helped to form China's current stance can anybody realistically disagree that action is needed?
Talking hasn't worked, so actions come next.
As I say in earlier posts, something needs to be done and whether or not it can be agreed that this is the way to prompt change, that is what the outcome will lead to.
One way or another, and let's hope for the better.


Nato came about from the UK and France signing the Treaty of Dunkirk in 1947 which soon expanded to Beneluxe countries, as a promise to aid other member countries if Germany or Russia showed agression post-WWII.
The USA was interested by the late 40's but it was only due to the Korean war that the USA became interested enough to really recognise potential threats and do anything about it - and that is when NATO was really born; in the early 50's, not in 1949 when the North Atlantic Treaty was signed.

But (again) this too was supposed to be a support mechanism for member countries.
The size and contribution are supposed to be unimportant; it's the principal of helping out others that was supposedly of prime importance.
Expansion changed that too, with (as I have said) too many members having their own agendas.

Regarding NATO, it is quite true that the stationing of NATO countries armed forces in Germany supposedly guarding Germany from Soviet agression led to quite an imbalance.
Germany didn't need a military sufficient to protect itself from aggressors, plus not having a larger military prevented the obvious accusations.

In recent years however that argumment has increasingly become outdated and unnecessary.
Germany has been able to use the vast sums which should have been contributed towards defence on other things to the benefit of Germany while the USA (and others) have footed the bill for Germany's defence.
(That's a bit of an oversimplification because the defence was in fact of most of Europe, but the gist is true.)

There might be some truth in the suggestion that the USA was in fact protecting itself; certainly the training and experience that having a military based at times beyond your own country can only be beneficial too.
But it's one heck of an expensive way of doing things and there is no doubt whatsoever that financially the benefits have always been in favour of certain European countries.

This imbalance needed changing around the time the Berlin Wall fell, so review really is well overdue.
There would probably never be an ideal time to re-think either the WTO or NATO, but just maybe a pandemic could provide that opportunity as the whole world seeks to adjust.
Donkeyman
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16-01-2021, 02:19 PM
33

Re: U boats and EU rules !!

I have read your answer through a couple of times Zaphod to !make
I got it all, and find your opening paragraph sums it up very well?
I am saying the same thing as you but from a slightly different angle?
I think our conclusions are the same, ie; it all needs modifying ?

Donkeyman! 👍🤔👍
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Zaphod
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16-01-2021, 04:39 PM
34

Re: U boats and EU rules !!

Originally Posted by Donkeyman ->
I have read your answer through a couple of times Zaphod to !make
I got it all, and find your opening paragraph sums it up very well?
I am saying the same thing as you but from a slightly different angle?
I think our conclusions are the same, ie; it all needs modifying ?

Donkeyman! 👍🤔👍
Yup, that sums it up just fine.
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JBR
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16-01-2021, 05:51 PM
35

Re: U boats and EU rules !!

Originally Posted by Donkeyman ->
Oh, l thought the WTO was in trouble because its founder member
and main funder ( USA) was miffed because it did'nt get any
preferential treatment anymore??
And NATO is a similar story , especially lsince the formation of the
EU, as the funding for NATO was only being supported by about
three of the EU members,USA,. UK, & one of the Nordic nations ?

Germany i and France as the main benificiaries of NATO paying
little or nothing towards the upkeep was particularly irksome to
Trump as he believed he was paying for Europe's protection from
Russia!!
Justifiably l believe?
Although Europe contends that USA via NATO was really protecting
it's self?? Both sides have a point l think ! But currently l believe
the USA view is the right one!!
Unless of course the EU is planning to combine with Russia in the
long term ???
Thanks for your info though, l find it interesting to hear other points
of view ???
I think that, apart from the US and the UK, only Poland and perhaps one other EU country coughed up the agreed amount for NATO membership.

I agree. In fairness, I think America is responsible more than anyone else for the protection of Europe from Russia. At least we are paying our due and, let's not forget, contributing such things as intelligence (GCHQ, Menwith Hill) and surveillance / BMEWS (Fylingdales).

If I had my way, I'd kick most of Europe out of NATO for not contributing. I'm absolutely sure that it wouldn't take long before they realised their mistake and before Russia began making moves toward regaining what it gave up in Europe. Yes, they'd get a quick, sharp shock sure enough!
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Zaphod
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17-01-2021, 12:35 PM
36

Re: U boats and EU rules !!

Originally Posted by JBR ->
I think that, apart from the US and the UK, only Poland and perhaps one other EU country coughed up the agreed amount for NATO membership.

I agree. In fairness, I think America is responsible more than anyone else for the protection of Europe from Russia. At least we are paying our due and, let's not forget, contributing such things as intelligence (GCHQ, Menwith Hill) and surveillance / BMEWS (Fylingdales).

If I had my way, I'd kick most of Europe out of NATO for not contributing. I'm absolutely sure that it wouldn't take long before they realised their mistake and before Russia began making moves toward regaining what it gave up in Europe. Yes, they'd get a quick, sharp shock sure enough!
Agreed.


Most of the EU countries have taken the proverbial for long enough.
Russia is waiting in the Ukraine (thanks mostly to the dim-witted EU) and is getting friendlier with Turkey too.
A shock is what the EU needs, although I reckon they equally risk it coming from within if they keep on peeving Poland, Hungary & co.
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Bread
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18-01-2021, 12:56 PM
37

Re: U boats and EU rules !!

Originally Posted by Zaphod ->
Agreed.


Most of the EU countries have taken the proverbial for long enough.
Russia is waiting in the Ukraine (thanks mostly to the dim-witted EU) and is getting friendlier with Turkey too.
A shock is what the EU needs, although I reckon they equally risk it coming from within if they keep on peeving Poland, Hungary & co.
I think that the EU is over anyway. Now we have left and their catastrophe over vaccines France and Germany are trying to stop the rot by calling for more EU integration.... all that will do is pour petrol on the fire and create even more division.
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Zaphod
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18-01-2021, 01:53 PM
38

Re: U boats and EU rules !!

Originally Posted by Bread ->
I think that the EU is over anyway. Now we have left and their catastrophe over vaccines France and Germany are trying to stop the rot by calling for more EU integration.... all that will do is pour petrol on the fire and create even more division.
..... Which isn't going to be helped in any way, shape or form by the inevitable changes in leadership that are coming over these next few years.
Merkel is already leaving behind a disjointed and uncertain Germany; Elections in The Netherlands, Catalonia, Norway and France aren't exactly going to lead to deeper agreement within the EU.
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18-01-2021, 04:38 PM
39

Re: U boats and EU rules !!

Originally Posted by Zaphod ->
..... Which isn't going to be helped in any way, shape or form by the inevitable changes in leadership that are coming over these next few years.
Merkel is already leaving behind a disjointed and uncertain Germany; Elections in The Netherlands, Catalonia, Norway and France aren't exactly going to lead to deeper agreement within the EU.

Yeah its going be France and Germany hating each other and everyone else hating them.

It's going to be funny to watch
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Percy Vere
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18-01-2021, 04:40 PM
40

Re: U boats and EU rules !!

And with the likelihood of a Europhobe Italian PM after this year's GE there, well ...
 
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