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JBR
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30-04-2021, 01:50 PM
111

Re: Remainers

Originally Posted by swimfeeders ->
hi

thank you for that.

I hold you in the highest esteem, a very thoughtful articulate poster.

I had absolutely no problem with the single market and common customs union.

I had a huge problem with further integration, so voted leave.

I hope you prosper, in the same way i hope we prosper.
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30-04-2021, 01:50 PM
112

Re: Remainers

Originally Posted by JBR ->
I agree. Nothing wrong with peaceful protestation, and the remoaners are taking full advantage of that.

Anyway, as long as it keeps them happy!
He doesn't seem to be happy even then! Wonder here he is hiding? In foxhole perhaps?


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30-04-2021, 02:06 PM
113

Re: Remainers

Originally Posted by 7779311 ->
Yes, I remember the discussions. The current NI border "solution" was something "no PM would ever agree to" wrote the media then.
I find it a bit surprising how quiet the people of the UK are in the view of those (in my view big) promises that where not fulfilled. You know which I mean. B. Johnson still leading the polls - interesting and for me unexpected.

Now that we have been watching the negotians for some years, I dare to claim that the EU will not reduce the red tape or make the single market acces any easier for the UK to remain fair towards the other non EU member countries.
If that holds true, then the UK will I think inevitably have to replace a huge portion of the EU market by new markets.
We all hope of course that the UK will not become "sick" again.
I agree.
I believe there are a number of reasons for that.

For one thing, we have few options for choosing believable political parties. Labour have shot themselves in the foot over several years now, and the other odds and sods are so minor and have little real following that on the Conservatives now have a realistic chance of being re-elected next time.

There is, of course, Reform UK and that brings up the second reason. British people are very slow and reticent in changing their political allegiances: it has been a two-horse race for many decades now - Conservative or Labour. If we can't stick our necks out now I can't see that changing.

Another reason is that we still have a 'first past the post' electoral system under which only one of the (what were) the two main parties could ever get into government.
If we had 'proportional representation', which I believe you have and many people in this country have been hoping for too, it would reduce the overall control of the two established parties and give the smaller parties - and hence the people who vote for them - a chance of some control of how things are done in this country.
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30-04-2021, 02:12 PM
114

Re: Remainers

Originally Posted by JBR ->
Really? I'm surprised about that. You are not given the opportunity to express your collective wishes to your rulers?

I know that the EU is not really a democracy: the ruling organisation - the Commission - is not elected by the people, at least not directly.

Hopefully, when Germany leaves the EU (and, yes, it has been talked about by your own MEPs), you too may again have a democratically elected government of your own.

I do hope it happens and, if so, I'm pleased that we've encouraged and helped to facilitate it.
You know I consider myself open minded and a DEEXIT is not automatically out of the question. That is one of the reasons why I am interested in the Brexit outcome. I will say a big thank you to you, if Germany should leave the EU and be better of afterwards. Maybe in some years... if this forum then still exists.

Concerning democracy in Germany: we do not have a collective wish. If we had one, then we would have the perfect government. You do not have collective wishes either, 52% vs 48% remember?
Our chancellor typically is from the party that gains the largest mayority in our elections. We have coalitions anyway. So yes, we do not vote our chancellor directly.

In Germany our best selling newspaper "Bild" can be compared to the Daily Express. If I imagine we had referendums and "Bild" readers could determine Germanies politics and future, I would have to live somewhere else. Luckily that danger does not exist here!

As far as I know you did not vote B. Johnson directly, did you? If I am right, then the EU commission works the same.
The democreatic processes in the EU are a lot more complicated then just dictating by the commission. In case you are interested, wikipedia ...
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30-04-2021, 02:34 PM
115

Re: Remainers

Originally Posted by 7779311 ->
You know I consider myself open minded and a DEEXIT is not automatically out of the question. That is one of the reasons why I am interested in the Brexit outcome. I will say a big thank you to you, if Germany should leave the EU and be better of afterwards. Maybe in some years... if this forum then still exists.

Concerning democracy in Germany: we do not have a collective wish. If we had one, then we would have the perfect government. You do not have collective wishes either, 52% vs 48% remember?
Our chancellor typically is from the party that gains the largest mayority in our elections. We have coalitions anyway. So yes, we do not vote our chancellor directly.

In Germany our best selling newspaper "Bild" can be compared to the Daily Express. If I imagine we had referendums and "Bild" readers could determine Germanies politics and future, I would have to live somewhere else. Luckily that danger does not exist here!

As far as I know you did not vote B. Johnson directly, did you? If I am right, then the EU commission works the same.
The democreatic processes in the EU are a lot more complicated then just dictating by the commission. In case you are interested, wikipedia ...
True, but how many countries have a government voted for by 100% of the electorate?
52% v. 48% is sufficient for a democratic decision: the majority wins.
The strange thing is that in Britain, the 48% believe that they should have won!

But a referendum doesn't necessarily ensure a change in government. What it does do is to inform the sitting government of the feelings of the majority of people. If the majority are unhappy about something, a sensible government would address the situation and make adjustments - if they hope to remain in government at the next election.

No. Personally, I voted for my local Conservative MP, not Boris Johnson and certainly not Treason May.
That's how it works. The politicians with the highest number of votes are elected and represent their party in the Commons. The party with highest number of elected politicians forms the government.
Consequently, whether in government or not, everyone who voted for their local candidate, if s/he won the vote, would be represented in parliament. Even if one didn't vote for the 'winner', the elected politician still has a responsibility to represent the people of their constituency.
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30-04-2021, 03:36 PM
116

Re: Remainers

Originally Posted by JBR ->
True, but how many countries have a government voted for by 100% of the electorate?
52% v. 48% is sufficient for a democratic decision: the majority wins.
The strange thing is that in Britain, the 48% believe that they should have won!

But a referendum doesn't necessarily ensure a change in government. What it does do is to inform the sitting government of the feelings of the majority of people. If the majority are unhappy about something, a sensible government would address the situation and make adjustments - if they hope to remain in government at the next election.

No. Personally, I voted for my local Conservative MP, not Boris Johnson and certainly not Treason May.
That's how it works. The politicians with the highest number of votes are elected and represent their party in the Commons. The party with highest number of elected politicians forms the government.
Consequently, whether in government or not, everyone who voted for their local candidate, if s/he won the vote, would be represented in parliament. Even if one didn't vote for the 'winner', the elected politician still has a responsibility to represent the people of their constituency.
You say that those of the minority think that they should have won. Of course they do. The winners call them "Remoaners" which displays an attitude of the same kind. The Brexiteers "should have won". Just the same IMO.

If you need to decide which movie to watch or where to order pizza, a majority of 50+% is ok. When it comes to very important decisions, I find neccessary majorities of at least two thirds the better way.

Hopefully Scotland will not find itself in the same position, should there be a IndiRef2. If just 50+% voted to leave they would surely find themselves in the same position as the UK, concerning the division.
Anyway IMO Scotland should not vote to leave the UK.
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30-04-2021, 04:19 PM
117

Re: Remainers

Originally Posted by 7779311 ->
You say that those of the minority think that they should have won. Of course they do. The winners call them "Remoaners" which displays an attitude of the same kind. The Brexiteers "should have won". Just the same IMO.

If you need to decide which movie to watch or where to order pizza, a majority of 50+% is ok. When it comes to very important decisions, I find neccessary majorities of at least two thirds the better way.

Hopefully Scotland will not find itself in the same position, should there be a IndiRef2. If just 50+% voted to leave they would surely find themselves in the same position as the UK, concerning the division.
Anyway IMO Scotland should not vote to leave the UK.
Not "should have won", 7779311, but "did win".
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30-04-2021, 04:37 PM
118

Re: Remainers

Originally Posted by Percy Vere ->
Not "should have won", 7779311, but "did win".
You are right, I know. I used "should" to display that both parts usually think that they "should" win. Of course one side actually won.
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30-04-2021, 04:59 PM
119

Re: Remainers

Originally Posted by JBR ->
True, but how many countries have a government voted for by 100% of the electorate?
.
Especially when a large part of that electorate can't be bothered to vote anyway.
Over here, we had obligatory voting (belgium and luxemburg, greece still have it). Everybody of voting age got an 'invitation' to come and vote. After abolishment the percentage dropped to 70%.
In countries with a large poercentage of old, such obligation profits the conservatives.
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30-04-2021, 06:45 PM
120

Re: Remainers

Originally Posted by 7779311 ->
You say that those of the minority think that they should have won. Of course they do. The winners call them "Remoaners" which displays an attitude of the same kind. The Brexiteers "should have won". Just the same IMO.
But you're missing the minor point that the Brexiteers DID win!

You won't believe me, but had the Remoaners won, I would have gracefully accepted it on the grounds that we live in a democracy. I wouldn't have liked it, and I would have expected the country to suffer as a consequence, but I wouldn't try to argue that the majority were wrong and should be overruled.

As it happens, I believe that the Brexiteers are being proved right! Despite our still remaining under some influence of the EU, the UK appears to be making more progress than the EU. Perhaps other EU countries will learn from our decision and follow us to freedom and sovereignty.
 
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