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Bread
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26-08-2019, 08:19 AM
71

Re: Hard border or no hard border ?

Originally Posted by Banchory ->
Oh dear, you seem to be having comprehension problems again

Yes a citizen of another EU country would have their passport checked at the point of entry into the ROI, at least you understand that.

But please enlighten me as to how the UK will prevent any of them illegally entering the UK if we do not intend to have hard border checks or any tech solution to prevent that

The ROI cannot refuse entry to any EU citizen so they are not going to be of any use and one of the key brexiteer arguments was the control of immigration and yet you suggest leaving the back door open

Additionally, a colleague of mine Postulated the other day that other countries may lodge a complaint with the WTO if we offer open boarders to one country whilst trading under WTO rules and not to all.
Their passports are checked when they enter the UK because we are not in Schengen either .... durrr

Your collegue sounds like he doesn't understand the WTO either. Here is what will happen.

.... after Brexit there is no hard customs border in Ireland - so a WTO member enters the trade disputes system to complain that the EU and the UK (and northern Ireland) are not trading according to the rules because there is no hard border between the republic and northern ireland.

At this point the WTO will consider the complaint and do one of 2 things ...

1. Ignore the complaint because the e-border in Ireland works perfectly well and acts as a facilitator to the peace process, upholding the GFA. No action would be taken because even though the hard border is not there, the e-border is in line with the direction of the WTO, moving away from the the old-style hard border system. Besides, e-borders support the flow of goods much better than a hard border and in agreement with the objectives of the WTO.

Which country would do the complaint ? The one that wants to be remembered for the rest of its life for trying to bring terrorism back to Ireland because of WTO rules ? Dream on ...

2. The WTO vote in favour of the complaint and the WTO members then apply sanctions on the EU and the UK (and Northern Ireland) until they decide who is going to build the border ... even though we have said none of us will.

Banchory
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26-08-2019, 08:46 AM
72

Re: Hard border or no hard border ?

Originally Posted by Bread ->
Their passports are checked when they enter the UK because we are not in Schengen either .... durrr

Your collegue sounds like he doesn't understand the WTO either. Here is what will happen.

.... after Brexit there is no hard customs border in Ireland - so a WTO member enters the trade disputes system to complain that the EU and the UK (and northern Ireland) are not trading according to the rules because there is no hard border between the republic and northern ireland.

At this point the WTO will consider the complaint and do one of 2 things ...

1. Ignore the complaint because the e-border in Ireland works perfectly well and acts as a facilitator to the peace process, upholding the GFA. No action would be taken because even though the hard border is not there, the e-border is in line with the direction of the WTO, moving away from the the old-style hard border system. Besides, e-borders support the flow of goods much better than a hard border and in agreement with the objectives of the WTO.

Which country would do the complaint ? The one that wants to be remembered for the rest of its life for trying to bring terrorism back to Ireland because of WTO rules ? Dream on ...

2. The WTO vote in favour of the complaint and the WTO members then apply sanctions on the EU and the UK (and Northern Ireland) until they decide who is going to build the border ... even though we have said none of us will.


But you stated there would be no border checks

You really don’t know what what you are talking about fo you

So when they travel fro the ROI to NI unhindered and bird a ferry from NI to the mainland UK ups are saying that there will be customs checks which is exactly what the DUP are opposing

So how will e-borders deal with pestle crossing from The ROI into NI?

The EU have indicated that in z no deal scenario they will have to impose border checks . But those checks will be on goods and people entering the EU not leaving it

If the UK determines not to undertake customs checks on goods or people entering NI from the ROI the WTO would have no problem in determining who to impose sanctions on should they determined a breach had occurred

Whether any other country would actually lodge a complaint in another matter

So how are you going to stop EU citizens entering NI and the UK without customs checks

The EU will not prevent its citizens from exiting at its borders and you propose no checks on them entering NI
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26-08-2019, 09:33 AM
73

Re: Hard border or no hard border ?

Originally Posted by Banchory ->
But you stated there would be no border checks

You really don’t know what what you are talking about fo you

So when they travel fro the ROI to NI unhindered and bird a ferry from NI to the mainland UK ups are saying that there will be customs checks which is exactly what the DUP are opposing

So how will e-borders deal with pestle crossing from The ROI into NI?

The EU have indicated that in z no deal scenario they will have to impose border checks . But those checks will be on goods and people entering the EU not leaving it

If the UK determines not to undertake customs checks on goods or people entering NI from the ROI the WTO would have no problem in determining who to impose sanctions on should they determined a breach had occurred

Whether any other country would actually lodge a complaint in another matter

So how are you going to stop EU citizens entering NI and the UK without customs checks

The EU will not prevent its citizens from exiting at its borders and you propose no checks on them entering NI


Customs checks and the CTA / Schengen are completely different things.

Not all the EU is in Schengen.

so ...

The Ireland of Ireland and the UK are not in the Schengen area.

There is free movement of people (once you have shown your passport to enter it) in Ireland from the RoI and NI - this is the common travel area, not to be confused with Schengen. This means that to enter the CTA you need to show your passport/ID, from there you have free movement. However, the UK is also not in Schengen so all passports/ID are checked when entering UK ports / airports etc and the EU also checks passports for all citizens entering it from countries outside of Schengen.

Customs borders are a different matter - these are for goods that go in and out of different countries with different customs /duties arrangements.

Border checks to not need to be on the geographical border - in fact in most countries (including the EU) these are done several Km away in designated customs areas (Rotterdam is a good example).
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26-08-2019, 11:59 AM
74

Re: Hard border or no hard border ?

Originally Posted by Bread ->
Customs checks and the CTA / Schengen are completely different things.

Not all the EU is in Schengen.

so ...

The Ireland of Ireland and the UK are not in the Schengen area.

There is free movement of people (once you have shown your passport to enter it) in Ireland from the RoI and NI - this is the common travel area, not to be confused with Schengen. This means that to enter the CTA you need to show your passport/ID, from there you have free movement. However, the UK is also not in Schengen so all passports/ID are checked when entering UK ports / airports etc and the EU also checks passports for all citizens entering it from countries outside of Schengen.

Customs borders are a different matter - these are for goods that go in and out of different countries with different customs /duties arrangements.

Border checks to not need to be on the geographical border - in fact in most countries (including the EU) these are done several Km away in designated customs areas (Rotterdam is a good example).
So are you saying that passports will be checked when travelling from Belfast to Birkenhead?
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26-08-2019, 12:25 PM
75

Re: Hard border or no hard border ?

Originally Posted by Banchory ->
So are you saying that passports will be checked when travelling from Belfast to Birkenhead?
Passports are checked (along with other ID) at UK ferry terminals and airports.

If you are a UK citizen its just ID like a driving license but if you are outside the UK then passport is required.

I think there is a form (called a D1 or a D4) something like that for people from outside the EU / UK. The EU will be treated the same as other countries that's all.

We also need to take ID for domestic flights to Scotland etc within the UK - driving license etc

Besides, you need to understand that we aren't going to abolish tourism when we leave the EU ...
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26-08-2019, 02:59 PM
76

Re: Hard border or no hard border ?

Originally Posted by Bread ->
Passports are checked (along with other ID) at UK ferry terminals and airports.

If you are a UK citizen its just ID like a driving license but if you are outside the UK then passport is required.

I think there is a form (called a D1 or a D4) something like that for people from outside the EU / UK. The EU will be treated the same as other countries that's all.

We also need to take ID for domestic flights to Scotland etc within the UK - driving license etc

Besides, you need to understand that we aren't going to abolish tourism when we leave the EU ...
Hi

Theory and practice.

Passports are not checked for EU Citizens at UK Ports and Airports, all they need is an ID, very different to a passport.

Resources are so short that are certain times the Border Force have admitted that they just wave people through.

We do not check passports or ID in the common travel area.

You can just drive from the ROI to NI and vice versa.

You need ID to board a flight to Scotland, you do not need it to drive or travel by coach or rail.

I fished the competitions in Ireland before I became ill, no routine checks toing and froing.

As for entry checks to the UK, they are a joke.

One of the masterminds of the Paris Bombings came and went in the weeks before, never stopped, even though he was on the list.

Lucas and Bogdan come once a month, stay for 8 or 9 days, then back to Poland.

They buy airbags and sensors from scrap cars here, export them to Poland and sell them.

They have been stopped once in 4 years on the way in, and once on the way out.

The only interest shown was in how much vodka they bring in.

We are Polish, we drink a lot, waved through.
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26-08-2019, 03:35 PM
77

Re: Hard border or no hard border ?

Originally Posted by swimfeeders ->
Hi

Theory and practice.

Passports are not checked for EU Citizens at UK Ports and Airports, all they need is an ID, very different to a passport.

Resources are so short that are certain times the Border Force have admitted that they just wave people through.

We do not check passports or ID in the common travel area.

You can just drive from the ROI to NI and vice versa.

You need ID to board a flight to Scotland, you do not need it to drive or travel by coach or rail.

I fished the competitions in Ireland before I became ill, no routine checks toing and froing.

As for entry checks to the UK, they are a joke.

One of the masterminds of the Paris Bombings came and went in the weeks before, never stopped, even though he was on the list.

Lucas and Bogdan come once a month, stay for 8 or 9 days, then back to Poland.

They buy airbags and sensors from scrap cars here, export them to Poland and sell them.

They have been stopped once in 4 years on the way in, and once on the way out.

The only interest shown was in how much vodka they bring in.

We are Polish, we drink a lot, waved through.
Are you saying post brexit only theory will change, not practice?
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26-08-2019, 05:27 PM
78

Re: Hard border or no hard border ?

Originally Posted by Solasch ->
Are you saying post brexit only theory will change, not practice?
According to current people in the business it's not impossible to do this and they just need the go ahead to put it into practice. I don't know when swim last worked the borders but current people seem to be confident which is all we need.
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26-08-2019, 05:53 PM
79

Re: Hard border or no hard border ?

Originally Posted by Julie1962 ->
According to current people in the business it's not impossible to do this and they just need the go ahead to put it into practice. I don't know when swim last worked the borders but current people seem to be confident which is all we need.
Closing an eye for smuggling is far easier than controlling 275 border passages.
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26-08-2019, 05:54 PM
80

Re: Hard border or no hard border ?

Originally Posted by Banchory ->
So without passport checks on the ROI/NI border or in the Irish Sea what’s to stop any European flying to Dublin, travelling to NI by way of the the common travel area and birding a ferry to the UK and then disappearing into the black economy?

Conversely the EU would not want goods entering the EU without payment of any tariffs that may be due which would be all to easy without some kind of border checks be they manual or a tech solution which doesn’t yet exist

So would you be happy with the above scenario ?
Simple answer - take away the Free Travel Area between Southern Ireland and the UK. (I would be quite happy to treat them as the EU and show my passport when visiting Southern Ireland. Why should either still be entitled to it any more? They may well be our neighbours but that's it, we owe them no favours. They belong with the EU now.

Furthermore, The UK and NI have categorically stated they would never put up a hard border between the two, so as it is only the EU using it as an excuse for negotiations, let they be the ones to erect a border and be responsible for it if the single market status is so important to them.

Time to put up or shut up.
 
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