12-07-2016, 09:33 PM
21
Re: Referendum to blame for ill feeling towards immigrants?
Well said Realist, it most certainly was about sticking two fingers up at the EU and the elite in our own government who were so cocksure that remain had it in the bag and once the referendum was out of the way and Brexit voters put back into their northern boxes, we could all carry on as before with the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer with all the immigrants taking their jobs, their homes,their place for a doctor's appointment or a hospital bed and their children's place in the school they couldn't get them into.Yes, of course people were angry and fed up and all the time we had the EU in the background gloating at how much they had stolen from this country and with intention to take ever more.
These are just part of the reasons millions voted to get out of hated EU.
Anyone who denies this is telling porkie pies but I won't argue with them if they are afraid to admit it !!
12-07-2016, 09:38 PM
22
Re: Referendum to blame for ill feeling towards immigrants?
The majority of discussions on this forum are provoked by media coverage. Forget the government, Brussels, Obama. Whoever controls the media is the all powerful. Anyone who stands in the way will be swept aside or discredited. Isn't it strange how Farage has left the political stage after his enthusiasm and drive. Same can be said about Leadsome, Johnson, Gove etc.....I get the feeling we are being manipulated big style!
12-07-2016, 09:53 PM
24
Re: Referendum to blame for ill feeling towards immigrants?
The Eu's demise will not be influenced unduly by the UK anymore. We have played our part. It will be racism, anti immigration sentiment and Islamophobia that will mainly bring pressure to bear on the EU from now on. This will materialise in Right Wing Governments taking control. These Governments will show short shrift to the EU's 'we are all Europeans' harmonic anthem.It will come down to brass knuckle and knuckle dragging violence eventually - intellectually and physically.
It has always been about immigration in my opinion in one form or another. No way would we have voted out of the EU without Merkel showing she ruled the roost and opening the flood gates to all and sundry.
12-07-2016, 10:54 PM
25
Re: Referendum to blame for ill feeling towards immigrants?
Originally Posted by OldGreyFox
->
....I get the feeling we are being manipulated big style!
The thing I find most irksome is the way they fly into a place when a news story is breaking and give the impression they know all about the country, it's people, and the background when in reality all they have is 'handouts' from local government it's a clever trick but doesn't impress me
13-07-2016, 04:11 PM
26
Re: Referendum to blame for ill feeling towards immigrants?
Originally Posted by MKJ
->
But according to all the diehard EU remainers it was
Originally Posted by MKJ
->
and I kinda agree with them.
Originally Posted by MKJ
->
What is pushing the anti EU buttons all across Europe is immigration.
The anti-EU sentiment is strong because the European COMMUNITY has now morphed into a highly political European UNION which is all set to become an all-powerful federal state, a United States Of Europe if you like. In doing so it's treaties contain clauses which hint strongly that the EU is going to replace the justice systems of EU countries with its own central justice system. It wants to enforce the disastrous Euro as the sole currency and has already agrred in treaties that EU members MUST support its aims and objectives. Those treaties also suggest that the EU will likely take control of the armies and weaponry of each EU member state which includes the UK forces and our nuclear weapons, and disband the sovereignty of each country and eradicate the actual concept of an individual country having a national identity. Equally they suggest that it will disband Westminster and the UK parliament which means no political parties (Lib-Lab-Con) and thus no general elections.
If this had played out you & I would not have a vote in anything meaningful and worse still, ok UK MEP's representing the UK in the EU would only have 29 votes out of a total of 352 total votes and thus would never ever be able to achieve and reform or change in the EU or it's laws and regulations. The UK as a country would have been completely destroyed, utterly and forever, which was surely one of the aims of the EU moguls.
NONE of the above is in any way even remotely connected to the immigration issue. It is about the UK being sold down the river to an almost totalitarian federal state which once achieved we could never escape from. The UK people have valiantly pulled out at the last hurdle before it was too late.
I'm not sure which part of the above you can't take on board, but that's how it is.
Originally Posted by MKJ
->
When you think about it it all boils down to immigration - right across Europe. Nothing else comes close to it.
Originally Posted by MKJ
->
Every argument regarding leaving the EU is intrinsically linked to immigration. Therefore 'immigration' is the sole problem with regard to the voters across all of Europe. There isn't any other other concern that can generate such social unrest.
Many EU countries have experienced massive debt crises which are nothing to do with immigration. Some have had to be bailed out (at our [UK taxpayers] loss), and those bailouts always come with lots of "conditions" in the small print, conditions which lead to massive austerity that hits people hard.
Greece
"Greece became the centre of Europe’s debt crisis after Wall Street imploded in 2008. With global financial markets still reeling, Greece announced in October 2009 that it had been understating its deficit figures for years, raising alarms about the soundness of Greek finances.
Suddenly, Greece was shut out from borrowing in the financial markets. By the spring of 2010, it was veering toward bankruptcy, which threatened to set off a new financial crisis.
To avert calamity, the so-called troika — the International Monetary Fund, the European Central Bank and the European Commission — issued the first of two international bailouts for Greece, which would eventually total more than €240 billion.
The bailouts came with conditions. Lenders imposed harsh austerity terms, requiring deep budget cuts and steep tax increases. They also required Greece to overhaul its economy by streamlining the government, ending tax evasion and making Greece an easier place to do business."
Source: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...euro.html?_r=0
Portugal
"The Great Recession in Portugal led to the country being unable to repay or refinance its government debt without the assistance of third parties. To prevent an insolvency situation in the debt crisis Portugal applied for bail-out programs and has drawn a cumulated €79.0 billion (as of November 2014) from the International Monetary Fund (IMF), the European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism (EFSM), and the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF)"
Spain
"before 2008 Spain's government was one of the least spendthrift in the eurozone - unlike Greece. Or Germany.
The Spanish government's debts were a mere 36% of its gross domestic product (GDP) (the output of its economy) in 2007, while the German government's were 65%.
What's more, Madrid was in the process of paying its debts off - it earned more in tax revenues than its total spending . In contrast, Berlin regularly broke the maximum annual borrowing level laid down in the Maastricht Treaty of 3% of GDP.
Evidently, this crisis has nothing to do with the recklessness of Spain's government.
Instead, it was other people in Spain who behaved recklessly.
Interest rates fell to historic lows when the euro was launched in 1999. So Spain's banks, property developers and ordinary home-buyers collectively borrowed and fuelled an enormous property bubble.
Between 1996 and 2007, Spanish property prices tripled - comparable to the price rises seen in the UK.
Now the bubble has popped. Those prices are steadily falling - and they look like they have a lot further to go.
The construction industry has collapsed, leaving hundreds of thousands out of work. Over-indebted home-owners face financial misery and have cut back on spending. And the banks are staring at a mounting pile of bad mortgage debts.
"
Ireland
"Due to the Great Recession, a number of Irish financial institutions faced almost imminent collapse due to insolvency. In response, the Irish government instigated a €64 billion euro bank bailout. This then led to a number of unexpected revelations about the business affairs of some banks and business people. Ultimately, added onto the deepening recession in the country, the bank bailout was the primary reason for the Irish government requiring IMF assistance in 2010."
In summary the Euro as a single currency for a multitude of differing countries has been an abject failure.
Being a member of the EU has been like parents being forced to take responsibility for 30 new children, many of whom are hopeless gamblers and wasters getting into huge debt that we are then obliged to bailout.
Each country that is driven to a debt crisis and bailout situation ends up having to make "deals" with the EU which doubtless ensure and cement the future totalitarian control of those countries by an all-powerful federal United States Of Europe.
The "peoples" are being sold down the river in all of these global exchanges and are the ones who will suffer.
13-07-2016, 05:31 PM
27
Re: Referendum to blame for ill feeling towards immigrants?
Originally Posted by Realist
->
No not so, it was just a minority set of "remainers" kicking out that propaganda for their own agenda which the media pushed hard to help influence a nation that they had made a bad decision and one not based on a desire to leave the EU. i.e. propaganda for the rest of the EU to think "Oh ok, they don't mind the EU at all, they're all just racists who are against immigration making a point . . . so the EU is ok, and we don't need a referendum of our own"Then you fell for the propaganda and media conditioning. You really should be getting more savvy to this by now imo.
No it is not. You're simply looking for answers where they do not exist. I shall try once more.
The anti-EU sentiment is strong because the European COMMUNITY has now morphed into a highly political European UNION which is all set to become an all-powerful federal state, a United States Of Europe if you like. In doing so it's treaties contain clauses which hint strongly that the EU is going to replace the justice systems of EU countries with its own central justice system. It wants to enforce the disastrous Euro as the sole currency and has already agrred in treaties that EU members MUST support its aims and objectives. Those treaties also suggest that the EU will likely take control of the armies and weaponry of each EU member state which includes the UK forces and our nuclear weapons, and disband the sovereignty of each country and eradicate the actual concept of an individual country having a national identity. Equally they suggest that it will disband Westminster and the UK parliament which means no political parties (Lib-Lab-Con) and thus no general elections.
If this had played out you & I would not have a vote in anything meaningful and worse still, ok UK MEP's representing the UK in the EU would only have 29 votes out of a total of 352 total votes and thus would never ever be able to achieve and reform or change in the EU or it's laws and regulations. The UK as a country would have been completely destroyed, utterly and forever, which was surely one of the aims of the EU moguls.
NONE of the above is in any way even remotely connected to the immigration issue. It is about the UK being sold down the river to an almost totalitarian federal state which once achieved we could never escape from. The UK people have valiantly pulled out at the last hurdle before it was too late.
I'm not sure which part of the above you can't take on board, but that's how it is.
Again this is nonsense. It's not immigration.
And again, immigration is not the cause of the troubles.
Many EU countries have experienced massive debt crises which are nothing to do with immigration. Some have had to be bailed out (at our [UK taxpayers] loss), and those bailouts always come with lots of "conditions" in the small print, conditions which lead to massive austerity that hits people hard.
Greece
"Greece became the centre of Europe’s debt crisis after Wall Street imploded in 2008. With global financial markets still reeling, Greece announced in October 2009 that it had been understating its deficit figures for years, raising alarms about the soundness of Greek finances.
Suddenly, Greece was shut out from borrowing in the financial markets. By the spring of 2010, it was veering toward bankruptcy, which threatened to set off a new financial crisis.
To avert calamity, the so-called troika — the International Monetary Fund, the European Central Bank and the European Commission — issued the first of two international bailouts for Greece, which would eventually total more than €240 billion.
The bailouts came with conditions. Lenders imposed harsh austerity terms, requiring deep budget cuts and steep tax increases. They also required Greece to overhaul its economy by streamlining the government, ending tax evasion and making Greece an easier place to do business."
Source: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...euro.html?_r=0
Portugal
"The Great Recession in Portugal led to the country being unable to repay or refinance its government debt without the assistance of third parties. To prevent an insolvency situation in the debt crisis Portugal applied for bail-out programs and has drawn a cumulated €79.0 billion (as of November 2014) from the International Monetary Fund (IMF), the European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism (EFSM), and the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF)"
Spain
"before 2008 Spain's government was one of the least spendthrift in the eurozone - unlike Greece. Or Germany.
The Spanish government's debts were a mere 36% of its gross domestic product (GDP) (the output of its economy) in 2007, while the German government's were 65%.
What's more, Madrid was in the process of paying its debts off - it earned more in tax revenues than its total spending . In contrast, Berlin regularly broke the maximum annual borrowing level laid down in the Maastricht Treaty of 3% of GDP.
Evidently, this crisis has nothing to do with the recklessness of Spain's government.
Instead, it was other people in Spain who behaved recklessly.
Interest rates fell to historic lows when the euro was launched in 1999. So Spain's banks, property developers and ordinary home-buyers collectively borrowed and fuelled an enormous property bubble.
Between 1996 and 2007, Spanish property prices tripled - comparable to the price rises seen in the UK.
Now the bubble has popped. Those prices are steadily falling - and they look like they have a lot further to go.
The construction industry has collapsed, leaving hundreds of thousands out of work. Over-indebted home-owners face financial misery and have cut back on spending. And the banks are staring at a mounting pile of bad mortgage debts.
"
Ireland
"Due to the Great Recession, a number of Irish financial institutions faced almost imminent collapse due to insolvency. In response, the Irish government instigated a €64 billion euro bank bailout. This then led to a number of unexpected revelations about the business affairs of some banks and business people. Ultimately, added onto the deepening recession in the country, the bank bailout was the primary reason for the Irish government requiring IMF assistance in 2010."
In summary the Euro as a single currency for a multitude of differing countries has been an abject failure.
Being a member of the EU has been like parents being forced to take responsibility for 30 new children, many of whom are hopeless gamblers and wasters getting into huge debt that we are then obliged to bailout.
Each country that is driven to a debt crisis and bailout situation ends up having to make "deals" with the EU which doubtless ensure and cement the future totalitarian control of those countries by an all-powerful federal United States Of Europe.
The "peoples" are being sold down the river in all of these global exchanges and are the ones who will suffer.
Sit back and watch it unfold across all of Europe.
Here is how I see things panning out - open hostility to Islamisation being the reason for leaving the EU.
Right-wing Dutch politician shock claim: Holland needs EU vote to 'prevent Islamisation'
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...-geert-wilders
13-07-2016, 08:13 PM
28
Re: Referendum to blame for ill feeling towards immigrants?
Originally Posted by Julie1962
->
Having tried to use the hate speech legislation, I would say it's not working Mark, you have to actually threaten a person or group and have a realistic chance of carrying out the threat. If I said I hate a group of people or person and hoped they died of something painful, called them rats or vermin, that is not apparently against the law. How can that not be hate speech ?
The only way to sort this is to ascertain the root cause of it. I believe there are probably many, but one might be that some white English people feel that coloured people are being treated more favourably than they themselves are. For example, white Christians publicly protesting seen as troublemakers by the police and being arrested or dispersed, whilst muslim protesters are allowed to do much worse: to parade about with placards suggesting that "Britain will become muslim" and "Police burn in hell", or even burning flags.
This one-sided approach by the authorities is solving nothing; it is, in fact, stirring up racial hatred.
13-07-2016, 08:22 PM
29
Re: Referendum to blame for ill feeling towards immigrants?
Originally Posted by Realist
->
Referendum was NOT about immigration. That's a white wash bit of propaganda being pumped out by the media (esp BBC).Immigration has been an issue for years and has had the negative effect of pushing down basic wages and other problems.
The constant linking of the referendum result with immigration is wrong, it's a cop out, a cover up and is being done by people with an agenda.
Referendum was about saying no to Brussels. Saying no to giving up our sovereignty, saying no to giving up our justice system, our laws and regulations and to the overall corruption of a minority elite seeking more power and wealth. Not immigration.
On the other hand, I believe that the recent influx from Africa and the Middle East made feelings and fears much stronger than before, and for very good reasons which have already been stated.
It could, of course, be argued that the one is a consequence of the other. If we continued to remain in the EU I'm sure that the EU, having effectively gained still more power, would have passed laws denying us the right to prevent or even reduce immigration. I think many people must have realised this and the combination of loss of sovereignty together with uncontrolled immigration, with all its practical consequences for us, have made them (us) take the most sensible course of action.
13-07-2016, 08:38 PM
30
Re: Referendum to blame for ill feeling towards immigrants?
Originally Posted by JBR
->
No, that's trying to address the symptoms and not the cause.The only way to sort this is to ascertain the root cause of it. I believe there are probably many, but one might be that some white English people feel that coloured people are being treated more favourably than they themselves are. For example, white Christians publicly protesting seen as troublemakers by the police and being arrested or dispersed, whilst muslim protesters are allowed to do much worse: to parade about with placards suggesting that "Britain will become muslim" and "Police burn in hell", or even burning flags.
This one-sided approach by the authorities is solving nothing; it is, in fact, stirring up racial hatred.
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