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AidoPotato
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12-10-2019, 10:21 AM
1

Fears come to fruition

https://www.theguardian.com/business...uit-eu-workers

Many well read, intelligent experts warned of this as far back as Summer 2016. It really is quite worrying in the event of a No-Deal Brexit.
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12-10-2019, 10:54 AM
2

Re: Fears come to fruition

A huge amount of this is seasonal work which in the past was done by students to supplement their student grants. I know because i used to do it in the 80's when at college. Living in rural Shropshire at the time, there was lot's of farms to chose from and plenty of work. I did this for two years until i left college and got a full time job.

Back then there was no such thing as minimum wage. The hours were long, sometimes it was back breaking work but the pay was good in my opinion. Farm work is for the young and fit because it is very strenuous work. As a family we carried on helping out the farmers until my youngest sister left college and got a full time job. If the weather was good we would go out to a local farm on a weekend and help out but this is when i noticed a theme occurring, the hours stayed the same, the strenuous nature of the work stayed the same but the amount of money you got at the end of the day was reduced. This happened for a number of years until it got to the point where we all said it's not worth it anymore. If you put in a good hard day's work, you expect to be reasonably paid, this was not happening.

I can only assume the way we thought was resonated amongst other students and then more students and more students until at some point students thought, whats the point. For too long many farmers have been taking advantage of the good nature of students to help them with seasonal work. Students back-lashed against the low money they were being paid so farmers had to look elsewhere, which was Europe.

Even today there are many farmers who do not pay minimal wage but EU workers are not going to complain due to fear of being sacked and yes, farmers do have blacklists of workers names to prevent them from working with other farmers, an uncle was a farmer hence why i know this.

Over the years there have been numerous article in the tabloid press about farmers taking advantage of EU workers over pay and conditions. In my opinion it's taken brexit for these EU workers to say enough is enough and head back home.
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12-10-2019, 10:59 AM
3

Re: Fears come to fruition

Originally Posted by Dodge ->
A huge amount of this is seasonal work which in the past was done by students to supplement their student grants. I know because i used to do it in the 80's when at college. Living in rural Shropshire at the time, there was lot's of farms to chose from and plenty of work. I did this for two years until i left college and got a full time job.

Back then there was no such thing as minimum wage. The hours were long, sometimes it was back breaking work but the pay was good in my opinion. Farm work is for the young and fit because it is very strenuous work. As a family we carried on helping out the farmers until my youngest sister left college and got a full time job. If the weather was good we would go out to a local farm on a weekend and help out but this is when i noticed a theme occurring, the hours stayed the same, the strenuous nature of the work stayed the same but the amount of money you got at the end of the day was reduced. This happened for a number of years until it got to the point where we all said it's not worth it anymore. If you put in a good hard day's work, you expect to be reasonably paid, this was not happening.

I can only assume the way we thought was resonated amongst other students and then more students and more students until at some point students thought, whats the point. For too long many farmers have been taking advantage of the good nature of students to help them with seasonal work. Students back-lashed against the low money they were being paid so farmers had to look elsewhere, which was Europe.

Even today there are many farmers who do not pay minimal wage but EU workers are not going to complain due to fear of being sacked and yes, farmers do have blacklists of workers names to prevent them from working with other farmers, an uncle was a farmer hence why i know this.

Over the years there have been numerous article in the tabloid press about farmers taking advantage of EU workers over pay and conditions. In my opinion it's taken brexit for these EU workers to say enough is enough and head back home.
I read your post with a Southern harmonica playing in my head, huckleberry finn style

Definitely some valid points Dodge, and it's all cause for concern but I don't believe that Farmer's mistreating EU workers is the only reason this industry is in the shit.

Those who were willing (for whatever reasons) to do these despite low pay and poor working conditions are no longer available to pick. That's the bottom line.
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12-10-2019, 10:59 AM
4

Re: Fears come to fruition

Excellent post Dodge.
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12-10-2019, 12:12 PM
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Re: Fears come to fruition

I think that most seasonal pickers come from very low-earning eastern European countries. They were prepared to come over for the three months or so and work long hours to get as much money as they can. Unfortunately, I think Brexit, the thought that they are no longer welcome by some, plus the pound at the moment hasn't helped, as they can earn more in other EU countries.

British workers are not prepared to work for a minimum wage. Most live in our towns and cities. To get a job picking, they would need to come off benefits and housing, move to a rural area to earn less than they are probably claiming. Then they would have to go through the ordeal of claiming all over again at the end of the season. They won't do that.

As for students, The Apple season is September to November. when they are back at college.

No, I'm afraid Growers are going to have to learn that Brits will not work for what they call peanuts. A minimum hourly pay of £10 would probably be a starting point if they want workers from this country.
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12-10-2019, 12:45 PM
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Re: Fears come to fruition

Originally Posted by AidoPotato ->
I read your post with a Southern harmonica playing in my head, huckleberry finn style

Definitely some valid points Dodge, and it's all cause for concern but I don't believe that Farmer's mistreating EU workers is the only reason this industry is in the shit.

Those who were willing (for whatever reasons) to do these despite low pay and poor working conditions are no longer available to pick. That's the bottom line.
I do not think you have understood the last part of my post

Over the years there have been numerous article in the tabloid press about farmers taking advantage of EU workers over pay and conditions. In my opinion it's taken brexit for these EU workers to say enough is enough and head back home.
Basically, anyone who has followed the in's and out's of brexit will know that one of the contentious issues of brexit is the rights of EU citizens living and working in the UK, which is being currently addressed. Now if you looked into this further when the issue was first raised, as i have done, you will notice that EU citizens wanting to live and work in the UK have to fill out numerous forms. Now for those that do not know, a lot of those that do seasonal work for farmers do not go back to their own country, they stay in the UK doing other work to tie them over until the seasonal work starts again. With brexit looming it means these people will now also have to fill out the paperwork, something they are not willing to do because it means they become known to the UK government.

Many EU citizens who want to stay under the radar of governments can do so due to the policy of Freedom of Movement. This way people can stay anonymous, do work that gets them 'paid in hand' which many many farmers do, also many trades do the same, cash in hand, no questions asked, just put in a good days work.

Such a thing goes on and does happen but it is not something the main stream press are going to talk about because it would mean making public accusations against other EU countries citizens claiming their motives for leaving the UK are not so honourable. The owners of the papers do not want that hassle to take place. It is therefore much easier to go with the kind of report that you have linked to.

There is a lot more to why EU citizens are leaving the UK and it's is not for reasons that the press such as the Guardian are talking about.
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12-10-2019, 01:06 PM
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Re: Fears come to fruition

This is exactly what happens when people use cheap labour instead of investing in machinery and automation.

I said this again just the other day when the remainers asked me what I meant by "automation".

It goes a bit like this. Another failure of the EU to chalk up

And the reason the workers dont come here us because of the lower value of sterling. Nothing to do with Brexit
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12-10-2019, 01:22 PM
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Re: Fears come to fruition

Originally Posted by Dodge ->
I do not think you have understood the last part of my post



Basically, anyone who has followed the in's and out's of brexit will know that one of the contentious issues of brexit is the rights of EU citizens living and working in the UK, which is being currently addressed. Now if you looked into this further when the issue was first raised, as i have done, you will notice that EU citizens wanting to live and work in the UK have to fill out numerous forms. Now for those that do not know, a lot of those that do seasonal work for farmers do not go back to their own country, they stay in the UK doing other work to tie them over until the seasonal work starts again. With brexit looming it means these people will now also have to fill out the paperwork, something they are not willing to do because it means they become known to the UK government.

Many EU citizens who want to stay under the radar of governments can do so due to the policy of Freedom of Movement. This way people can stay anonymous, do work that gets them 'paid in hand' which many many farmers do, also many trades do the same, cash in hand, no questions asked, just put in a good days work.

Such a thing goes on and does happen but it is not something the main stream press are going to talk about because it would mean making public accusations against other EU countries citizens claiming their motives for leaving the UK are not so honourable. The owners of the papers do not want that hassle to take place. It is therefore much easier to go with the kind of report that you have linked to.

There is a lot more to why EU citizens are leaving the UK and it's is not for reasons that the press such as the Guardian are talking about.
The flaw in your conjecture it that the migrant farm workers are mainly EU citizens and currently still enjoy the freedom of movement and right to work that membership of the EU brings.

With crops being grown under cover all year round these workers are in constant demand and wage levels are determined by demand as well as exchange rates

Romania has been a key supplier of seasonal agri labour for the UK but whereas previously hundreds turned up to recruitment days this year the recruiters were lucky to get a handful attend

The overriding reasons are the exchange rate and the perception that they are not wanted in the UK by the brits and that the UK was no longer a safe place for them

These are the Government regs on farm wages

https://www.gov.uk/agricultural-work...y-and-overtime


A farm local to me was offering over £13 ph but higher rates are not unusual

https://www.thegrocer.co.uk/brexit-a...554452.article

The fact is, whether you like it or not that Brexit has proved to it to our fruit farmers and other seasonal agri sectors
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12-10-2019, 01:28 PM
9

Re: Fears come to fruition

Originally Posted by Banchory ->
The flaw in your conjecture it that the migrant farm workers are mainly EU citizens and currently still enjoy the freedom of movement and right to work that membership of the EU brings.

With crops being grown under cover all year round these workers are in constant demand and wage levels are determined by demand as well as exchange rates

Romania has been a key supplier of seasonal agri labour for the UK but whereas previously hundreds turned up to recruitment days this year the recruiters were lucky to get a handful attend

The overriding reasons are the exchange rate and the perception that they are not wanted in the UK by the brits and that the UK was no longer a safe place for them

These are the Government regs on farm wages

https://www.gov.uk/agricultural-work...y-and-overtime


A farm local to me was offering over £13 ph but higher rates are not unusual

https://www.thegrocer.co.uk/brexit-a...554452.article

The fact is, whether you like it or not that Brexit has proved to it to our fruit farmers and other seasonal agri sectors
I am basically agreeing with you that Brexit is at fault here BUT i disagree with your conjecture as to the cause.
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12-10-2019, 01:29 PM
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Re: Fears come to fruition

Originally Posted by Dodge ->
A huge amount of this is seasonal work which in the past was done by students to supplement their student grants. I know because i used to do it in the 80's when at college. Living in rural Shropshire at the time, there was lot's of farms to chose from and plenty of work. I did this for two years until i left college and got a full time job.

Back then there was no such thing as minimum wage. The hours were long, sometimes it was back breaking work but the pay was good in my opinion. Farm work is for the young and fit because it is very strenuous work. As a family we carried on helping out the farmers until my youngest sister left college and got a full time job. If the weather was good we would go out to a local farm on a weekend and help out but this is when i noticed a theme occurring, the hours stayed the same, the strenuous nature of the work stayed the same but the amount of money you got at the end of the day was reduced. This happened for a number of years until it got to the point where we all said it's not worth it anymore. If you put in a good hard day's work, you expect to be reasonably paid, this was not happening.

I can only assume the way we thought was resonated amongst other students and then more students and more students until at some point students thought, whats the point. For too long many farmers have been taking advantage of the good nature of students to help them with seasonal work. Students back-lashed against the low money they were being paid so farmers had to look elsewhere, which was Europe.

Even today there are many farmers who do not pay minimal wage but EU workers are not going to complain due to fear of being sacked and yes, farmers do have blacklists of workers names to prevent them from working with other farmers, an uncle was a farmer hence why i know this.

Over the years there have been numerous article in the tabloid press about farmers taking advantage of EU workers over pay and conditions. In my opinion it's taken brexit for these EU workers to say enough is enough and head back home.

This is how we have cheap food in the shops. British farms struggle to survive as it is.
 
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