Re: Serious problems with flu shot safety and effectiveness

The British Medical Journal figures are not estimated but it hardly matters; they are not my figures but the "estimated" figures are from authoritative, peer reviewed, medical research (did you check them?) and even if they were out by a factor of four (which is extremely unlikely) their figures are still nowhere near the numbers that our amateur, non medical, non statistician, non expert plucks from tables because they suit his bonnet bee.

Re: Serious problems with flu shot safety and effectiveness

A baseless lie,

All I have done is copied up the Public Health England statistics for direct Influenza deaths. It is NOT MY DATA.
If you have an issue with the government ONS data then contact them and take it up with them. Ranting at me for posting the info up simply makes you look like a desperate chump.

As for the links you have posted . . . again . . . nothing has changed. Posting it twice does nothing to change the facts as to what these separate sources of data are and represent.

The BMJ link you posted, as OGF rightly states, is a work of estimates, which they freely concede. The ONS data is a work of actuals, from death certificates etc. I don't contest that one source offers more accurate results than the other. I simply post up the data.

Here's the statement from YOUR BMJ link:

"The estimates of case fatality rates in our study have wide ranges, which reflect uncertainty about the proportion of people with symptoms who do not seek medical attention. If this proportion is higher than thought, our case fatality rates might be an overestimate. This proportion might have changed over time as public attitudes to the pandemic have evolved. The approach of using an estimate of total case numbers is subject to greater uncertainty than solely counting laboratory confirmed cases"


I see no issues here at all. The ONS data is pure raw numbers of Flu deaths taken from death reports. The BMJ data is a bunch of more complex estimations. The BMJ data may well have the better view on reality, who knows? That's not the point though.

None of that is the issue at stake here. An issue which you have still failed to take on board.

The issue is whether or not the flu mortality rates are going up or down. If they are going up then the flu vaccine is not doing its job.

In this respect it matters not one jot whether the ONS data for the single year of 2009 is more or less accurate than the BMJ data for 2009. That's a nice red herring you've thrown into the pot.

The issue is whether the TREND, year on year is up or down.

Why haven't you grabbed your BMJ figures for every year from 2009 to 2017 to assess the trend based on that data?

That would seem to be the required action on your part if you are attempting to prove that mortality rates are not going up surely?

No sorry you are incorrect. They are apples and bananas. One set of data is actual deaths caused by flu taken from death certificates/reports. The other is a set of estimates which aim to provide a more accurate picture. Apples, bananas.

Now off you go and seek out the full BMJ data for 2009 to 2017 and then come back and show us the trend.

Re: Serious problems with flu shot safety and effectiveness

Stupid comments in the extreme. I simply posted up the government Public Health ONS statistics, nothing more, nothing less. Their validity has no bearing on me as a person.

Re: Serious problems with flu shot safety and effectiveness

My answer remains the same Annie.

In the FIRST instance, I am for the use of Natural remedies using products of Nature and prior to any sickness, a life focus on Nature and a diet and lifestyle that is in tune with Nature.

If circumstances have gotten too far advanced, out of control or are an emergency then sure, I am for the regrettable use of things like Penicillin.

As a comparative, if the world needs to rid itself of a small group of evil dictators, then in the first instance I am for specialised smart solutions for the removal of those dictators.

I would not blindly just reach for the nuclear bomb button to wipe out the entire country in order to achieve the same result.

Antibiotics should be a last resort. They destory bacteria indiscriminately, killing both good (wanted) and bad (unwanted) bacteria. They also have complications and side effects.

Nature is and always will be best. It should be our first port of call and our Governments should be supporting and promoting this instead of being Big Pharma puppets.

Re: Serious problems with flu shot safety and effectiveness

Alternative remedies should be offered in the NHS imo but not on prescription, I'd have no problem if they offered me a natural remedy but I have yet to see natural remedy vaccinations that actually work. Homeopathy again I haven't witnessed that to work.

Re: Serious problems with flu shot safety and effectiveness

The day that a person involved in a car accident calls for their aromatherapist then I will agree.

Re: Serious problems with flu shot safety and effectiveness

Let's not get confused here Julie.

Natural remedies ARE NOT Homeopathy

The latter is snake oil.

You do not need the NHS to offer you natural remedies. They are available everywhere freely, Nature is free.

What you may of course need is educating on which remedies are appropriate for which conditions.

It would be great if the NHS and GPs offered such education and services, but that's never going to happen because there are no multi billion dollar profits to be made in telling people the enormous power of things like lemons, garlic and ginger.

Your health is YOUR responsibility. Everyone should have their health as No 1 priority in life and thus everyone should be educating themselves on Natural cures as early as possible in life.

Re: Serious problems with flu shot safety and effectiveness

I must say that you've piqued my interest in natural remedies, and when I have time I intend to look things up and find out more about what is good for what!

Do you happen to have any links along those lines?

Re: Serious problems with flu shot safety and effectiveness

We are an outlier in not offering natural remedies alongside conventional meds. Go to most countries in Europe and you will find a different approach where pharmacists are trained in both. SiL's mum had a copd crisis in france and part of hospital treatment included massaging the soles of her feet with essential oils.

Re: Serious problems with flu shot safety and effectiveness

Accidents are not like illnesses though Bruce, I'm a big fan of some natural remedies, NHS gave my husband steroid creams for years, I put him on coconut oil instead and it worked many many times more effectively than the steroids. I treat my dogs with natural remedies sometimes too, no nasty chemical drops on back of their necks to prevent fleas we just put garlic in their food and no fleas.

Accidents are more mechanical and need more conventional help although a poultice of various herbs will help healing in my experience better than any conventional medicine.