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Moscow
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23-11-2018, 09:35 PM
11

Re: EU27 Draw Up Tough New Demands to Lock UK Into Joint Fisheries Deal

Originally Posted by Solasch ->
This post by extra drymartini (post 230, thread brexit and eu) should have prohibited this whole discussion.

that leaves fishing... It's not really "Their retention of our fishing areas". It is the Common Fisheries Policy. UK boats fish European as well as UK waters (as per the French blockade recently vis-a-vis seemingly unfair access by British boats). The UK fishing industry exports more to the EU than it lands in the UK. Were we to pull out of it, countries like France and Spain would almost certainly demand very high tariffs on UK fish, making the whole thing uncompetitive.

That is apart from the point that fishing makes up less than 0.5% of GDP. I don't think it is logical to argue that the entire economy should take the hit of a no deal Brexit just so that this sector (very dubiously) do a little better.*

There is a good treatment on the subject of fishing here:

https://infacts.org/better-deal-uk-f...ll-hard-catch/
So you are also DryMartini?

I did wonder.

Thanks for confirming that.
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23-11-2018, 09:36 PM
12

Re: EU27 Draw Up Tough New Demands to Lock UK Into Joint Fisheries Deal

Originally Posted by Moscow ->
British Fishing waters are the largest in the EU.

Perhaps we allow the EU to fish in our waters and they allow us to harvest their timber forests . Basically we just drive over whenever we want and take as much timber as we want.
Brilliant, let's start a War.
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Ray Cathode
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23-11-2018, 10:44 PM
13

Re: EU27 Draw Up Tough New Demands to Lock UK Into Joint Fisheries Deal

The actual text of John (Spock) Redwood

"How many more industries does the EU intend to damage in the UK?
By johnredwood | Published: June 6, 2016

Amidst all this unreal talk from remain about possible future damage to business if we dare to leave the EU, there is a stunning silence about all the damage our EU membership has already done to many businesses. Remain claims to have perfect foresight over future damage if we leave, but complete memory loss over all the actual known damage done by staying in.



The other day I was asked by a remain supporter what he thought would prove a difficult question. “Mr Redwood, which of EU regulations do you think are damaging and would you like to repeal?”

Where do you begin? How can you compress the long list into a short answer?

We can all agree the rules and regulations of the single currency are not for us, though keeping out of some of them is difficult. Remain has total amnesia about the recession and huge damage to business the EU’s Exchange rate regulations did to us in the late 1980s.

Remain is usually silent about our fishing industry. An island nation with one of the world’s richest fishing grounds when we joined the EEC/EU has lost much of its industry under the rules of the common fishing policy. We are reduced to importing our own fish, plucked from our seas by foreign vessels. Out of the EU we could regulate our own fishing grounds and catch more of the permitted catch in UK vessels.

They are not that keen to talk about our steel industry either. Labour in the 1960s made a massive investment in a 45 million tonnes a year industry, with five large modern integrated plants paid for by taxpayers. Sine we joined the EEC/EU we have seen continuous decline, to an industry of under one quarter the capacity we had on entry in 1972. EU rules on steel trade, energy prices and state aids have helped bring us to this sad situation. The German industry, still at 43 million tonnes of output, has fared much better with a regime for cheaper energy and state support which is deemed legal when we struggle to get help or permission for us to help from the EU. EU policies have driven us to much more import dependence for steel, including having to import the steel for our submarines.

Then how about our electricity industry? EU regulations have turned a productive relatively low cost generator into a high cost one. EU energy policy is forcing us into more import dependence through interconnectors to the continent where before we were self sufficient.



When we joined the EU we produced 4% of the world’s aluminium. Today it has practically all gone, thanks to plant closures brought on the EU’s dear power policies.



Industry by industry the EU has damaged us and assisted industrial decline. If we were in charge of our own rules and spending plans we should do better."

http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2016/06...age-in-the-uk/
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Solasch
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23-11-2018, 11:38 PM
14

Re: EU27 Draw Up Tough New Demands to Lock UK Into Joint Fisheries Deal

Originally Posted by Moscow ->
So you are also DryMartini?

I did wonder.

Thanks for confirming that.
I'll let you in on a scret. In a few weeks time I won't be able to post. I have to deliver lots of presents to children who have been good. No, don't get your hopes up, you are not on the list.
If you are good next year I can however promise you a beautiful gift. A membership to the EU specially designed for the UK. Make a good year of 2019 and you will be rewarded at the end of the transition period in 2029. Oops! I meant 2021 of course.
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24-11-2018, 09:52 AM
15

Re: EU27 Draw Up Tough New Demands to Lock UK Into Joint Fisheries Deal

Originally Posted by shropshiregirl ->
Whilst it may not be fair to blame all this decline on membership of the EU, as there are other factors, it nonetheless shows categorically that joining the EU and helping create the so-called single market has not helped us grow and has not saved many of our industries from decline.

.......

Why have we suffered industrial decline and closure with production shifting elsewhere in Europe since joining the EEC?.
This is down to the global economy & demand and supply. Why produce your own steel when you can import it more cheaply from China. Why import steel when you can import finished goods from China. Why produce Dyson hoovers here when....

Our GDP and wealth increased greatly. It's the 2008 crash that has caused austerity and hit all countries hard.

The fishing industry is another matter. But industrial decline is a global matter for developed countries.
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AnnieS
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24-11-2018, 09:56 AM
16

Re: EU27 Draw Up Tough New Demands to Lock UK Into Joint Fisheries Deal

Originally Posted by Ray Cathode ->
Then how about our electricity industry? EU regulations have turned a productive relatively low cost generator into a high cost one. EU energy policy is forcing us into more import dependence through interconnectors to the continent where before we were self sufficient.

You mean before Thatcher closed to coal mines?
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24-11-2018, 10:00 AM
17

Re: EU27 Draw Up Tough New Demands to Lock UK Into Joint Fisheries Deal

Originally Posted by AnnieS ->
You mean before Thatcher closed to coal mines?
+

Don't forget that evil witch also sold off to her cronies the Electricity Generation, Gas supplies etc, etc which now means we're paying an enormous amount for our fuel because of her greed.
itsme
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24-11-2018, 11:34 AM
18

Re: EU27 Draw Up Tough New Demands to Lock UK Into Joint Fisheries Deal

Originally Posted by Ray Cathode ->
The actual text of John (Spock) Redwood

"How many more industries does the EU intend to damage in the UK?
By johnredwood | Published: June 6, 2016

Amidst all this unreal talk from remain about possible future damage to business if we dare to leave the EU, there is a stunning silence about all the damage our EU membership has already done to many businesses. Remain claims to have perfect foresight over future damage if we leave, but complete memory loss over all the actual known damage done by staying in.



The other day I was asked by a remain supporter what he thought would prove a difficult question. “Mr Redwood, which of EU regulations do you think are damaging and would you like to repeal?”

Where do you begin? How can you compress the long list into a short answer?

We can all agree the rules and regulations of the single currency are not for us, though keeping out of some of them is difficult. Remain has total amnesia about the recession and huge damage to business the EU’s Exchange rate regulations did to us in the late 1980s.

Remain is usually silent about our fishing industry. An island nation with one of the world’s richest fishing grounds when we joined the EEC/EU has lost much of its industry under the rules of the common fishing policy. We are reduced to importing our own fish, plucked from our seas by foreign vessels. Out of the EU we could regulate our own fishing grounds and catch more of the permitted catch in UK vessels.

They are not that keen to talk about our steel industry either. Labour in the 1960s made a massive investment in a 45 million tonnes a year industry, with five large modern integrated plants paid for by taxpayers. Sine we joined the EEC/EU we have seen continuous decline, to an industry of under one quarter the capacity we had on entry in 1972. EU rules on steel trade, energy prices and state aids have helped bring us to this sad situation. The German industry, still at 43 million tonnes of output, has fared much better with a regime for cheaper energy and state support which is deemed legal when we struggle to get help or permission for us to help from the EU. EU policies have driven us to much more import dependence for steel, including having to import the steel for our submarines.

Then how about our electricity industry? EU regulations have turned a productive relatively low cost generator into a high cost one. EU energy policy is forcing us into more import dependence through interconnectors to the continent where before we were self sufficient.



When we joined the EU we produced 4% of the world’s aluminium. Today it has practically all gone, thanks to plant closures brought on the EU’s dear power policies.



Industry by industry the EU has damaged us and assisted industrial decline. If we were in charge of our own rules and spending plans we should do better."

http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2016/06...age-in-the-uk/


It is interesting that John Redwood did not respond when asked for evidence on his thesis, much like a lot of posters on here.

https://theferret.scot/eu-eec-uk-gdp-growth/
itsme
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24-11-2018, 12:07 PM
19

Re: EU27 Draw Up Tough New Demands to Lock UK Into Joint Fisheries Deal

Originally Posted by shropshiregirl ->
Since you are so fond of quoting figures, perhaps you should read the following, eloquently given by John Redwood, MP.….....

QUOTE

Being part of the EU has practically destroyed UK industries.

Steel Industry - when we joined the EU, we had a 45 million tonnes a year steel industry. Today we are battling to save an 11 million tonnes industry.

Aluminium Industry - when we joined the EU we had a 400,000 tonnes a year aluminium industry, Today we have just 43,000 tonnes of capacity left.

Cement Industry - When we joined the EU we had 20 million tonnes of cement capacity. Today we have 12 million tonnes.

Just before we joined the EEC in 1971, we had a 1 million tonnes a year fishing industry. Today we have 600,00 tonnes.

Between 1951 and 1973 food and drink output rose by 5-6% per year. Since EEC/EU it has fallen by more than 1% a year.

Between 1951 and 1973 textiles output expanded at 2.6% a year. Since joining the EEC/EU it has fallen by more than 6% a year.

Whilst it may not be fair to blame all this decline on membership of the EU, as there are other factors, it nonetheless shows categorically that joining the EU and helping create the so-called single market has not helped us grow and has not saved many of our industries from decline.

In some cases, EU policies are the main driver of the disaster. The Common Fishing Policy is clearly the main reason for the dreadful decline of our fishing industry, as many foreign vessels were licenced to take our fish.
Our energy intensive businesses were often damaged by the high energy prices required by the EU common energy policy.

The EU has prevented UK subsidy of industry under its state aid rules but has often provided subsidised loans and grants to businesses to set up elsewhere in the EU.
The UK has seen a spate of factory closures balanced by new and expanded facilities in poorer EU countries. The UK lost van production to Turkey, car capacity to Slovakia, Chocolate to Poland, domestic appliances to the Netherlands and the Czech Republic and metal containers to Poland amongst others in recent years.
IN VARIOUS CASES THERE WAS AN EU GRANT OR LOAN INVOLVED IN THE NEW CAPACITY.

Looking at our huge balance of payments deficit today in goods with the rest of the EU, we can see the long-term impact of the EU’s damage to our manufacturing capacity.

Perhaps Remainers might like to answer the following questions.

1) Why have we suffered industrial decline and closure with production shifting elsewhere in Europe since joining the EEC?

2) Why do we trade in surplus with the rest of the world but have such a huge deficit with the EU?

3) Why have we ended up importing fish, electricity, steel and much else when we used to be self-sufficient?

UNQUOTE

Over to you………….
1) Production has moved all over the world and not just to the EU, ref Dysons decision to produce in Singapore etc etc. Also the decline has come about through, lack of investment, lack of training, lack of productivity etc.

2) The UK had a trade surplus of £41 billion with non-EU countries. A surplus of £83 billion on trade in services outweighed a deficit of -£42 billion on trade in goods.

https://researchbriefings.parliament...mmary/CBP-7851

So we don't have a trade surplus IN GOODS with with the rest of the world, although we did have a surplus in services.

3) Because it's cheaper
Julie1962
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24-11-2018, 12:09 PM
20

Re: EU27 Draw Up Tough New Demands to Lock UK Into Joint Fisheries Deal

One of the most important things from all of this is we need our seas back, that doesn't mean others can't buy a right to fish too but we have to put our fishing villages on the coasts back to work. It's harmed them greatly to only have a right to 5% of the fish. France has to accept they don't own our seas.
 
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