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19-02-2020, 12:15 PM
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Re: Boris Johnson urged to fire adviser who has voiced support for eugenics

Originally Posted by AnnieS ->
Eugenics were linked directly to the Holocaust as justification for mass murder. German scientists were measuring head circumference, excluding certain blood types, trying to chemically bleach eyes.

You can say anyone can have a view on anything but do you then condone free speech for paedophiles to put forward their side? What about jihadists? Should either group be employed to run the country because of their "inventive" minds?
Perhaps you didn't read my previous post fully. The emboldened word apply to those also. Stop trying to split hairs.

Originally Posted by Rainmaker ->
Let's get it into perspective. He was hired think think up new ideas. Like many people who think outside the box he was probably a little eccentric some ideas would be good, some bad, the government is not bound to accept them.

If you hire someone to think the unthinkable they are not going to do that if they fear for their job. As for anti-semitic, it's nothing like it but even if it were then he's entitled to his opinion so long as he doesn't advocate violence or discrimination. You can't force people to like others, if you do you just drive it underground.

As Judd has already pointed out, it was all in the past.
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20-02-2020, 05:16 PM
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Re: Boris Johnson urged to fire adviser who has voiced support for eugenics

His only fault was speaking the unspeakable truth.
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20-02-2020, 05:23 PM
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Re: Boris Johnson urged to fire adviser who has voiced support for eugenics

Originally Posted by AnnieS ->
Eugenics were linked directly to the Holocaust as justification for mass murder. German scientists were measuring head circumference, excluding certain blood types, trying to chemically bleach eyes.

You can say anyone can have a view on anything but do you then condone free speech for paedophiles to put forward their side? What about jihadists? Should either group be employed to run the country because of their "inventive" minds?
What the Nazis got up to was to abuse the LEGITIMATE science of Eugenics and so make the study of racial/genetic characteristics forbidden territory.

But let's never forget that the American government was deeply engaged in active eugenics well after the end of WW2.
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20-02-2020, 05:43 PM
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Re: Boris Johnson urged to fire adviser who has voiced support for eugenics

Originally Posted by The Artful Todger ->
What the Nazis got up to was to abuse the LEGITIMATE science of Eugenics and so make the study of racial/genetic characteristics forbidden territory.

But let's never forget that the American government was deeply engaged in active eugenics well after the end of WW2.
The Swedes were sterilising on eugenic grounds until the mid-70s? Sterilisation without consent of the mentally ill, the disabled, transgender.

But the taboo itself comes from Germany's "master race" actions during WWII.
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20-02-2020, 05:55 PM
25

Re: Boris Johnson urged to fire adviser who has voiced support for eugenics

Originally Posted by The Artful Todger ->
His only fault was speaking the unspeakable truth.
You cannot stop people having such views, but people with these views should not be in a position of power.
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20-02-2020, 08:55 PM
26

Re: Boris Johnson urged to fire adviser who has voiced support for eugenics

Originally Posted by The Artful Todger ->
But let's never forget that the American government was deeply engaged in active eugenics well after the end of WW2.
Also before ww2, which promptedcnazi's in neurenberg to refer to american practices as their source of inspiration.
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20-02-2020, 09:04 PM
27

Re: Boris Johnson urged to fire adviser who has voiced support for eugenics

Originally Posted by AnnieS ->
The Swedes were sterilising on eugenic grounds until the mid-70s? Sterilisation without consent of the mentally ill, the disabled, transgender.

But the taboo itself comes from Germany's "master race" actions during WWII.
Spermbanks still have criteria on genetic quality of their donors.

But it's use can be beneficial as well.
in certain population groups (ashkenazi Jews) in which the recessive hereditary disease of Tay-Sachs is much more prevalent than in the average population, a couple can be tested for the responsible gene before marrying, if desired without knowing the exact outcome, which is then communicated whether the partners are compatible or incompatible. Because abortion is rejected among devote Jews in this group, it is sometimes decided not to marry.

A similar example can be found on cypres (thalassemia).
In the netherlands pregnant women of over 35 can have a test for trisomie 21 (downsyndrome).

Although medelian genetics could have shown the futility of the original eugenic approach, the new dna techniques open the ways to it's goals.
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20-02-2020, 09:24 PM
28

Re: Boris Johnson urged to fire adviser who has voiced support for eugenics

Originally Posted by Solasch ->
Spermbanks still have criteria on genetic quality of their donors.

But it's use can be beneficial as well.
in certain population groups (ashkenazi Jews) in which the recessive hereditary disease of Tay-Sachs is much more prevalent than in the average population, a couple can be tested for the responsible gene before marrying, if desired without knowing the exact outcome, which is then communicated whether the partners are compatible or incompatible. Because abortion is rejected among devote Jews in this group, it is sometimes decided not to marry.

A similar example can be found on cypres (thalassemia).
In the netherlands pregnant women of over 35 can have a test for trisomie 21 (downsyndrome).

Although medelian genetics could have shown the futility of the original eugenic approach, the new dna techniques open the ways to it's goals.
They say that with IVF and test tube babies there is a weakness in the result because natural conception relies on survival of the fittest, whereas artificial interference results in harvesting without discriminating. So any interference with nature may result in lower risk of certain diseases but also more risk of other abnormalities or weaknesses. You cannot override nature or predict the results with confidence. I suppose any interference in genes could result in the same risks. It's dabbling in the known-unknown. You see it in dogs. The breeding malformations that cause undue suffering. But that will not stop humans from striving to be gods. A real ego trip.
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21-02-2020, 12:26 AM
29

Re: Boris Johnson urged to fire adviser who has voiced support for eugenics

Originally Posted by AnnieS ->
They say that with IVF and test tube babies there is a weakness in the result because natural conception relies on survival of the fittest, whereas artificial interference results in harvesting without discriminating. So any interference with nature may result in lower risk of certain diseases but also more risk of other abnormalities or weaknesses. You cannot override nature or predict the results with confidence. I suppose any interference in genes could result in the same risks. It's dabbling in the known-unknown. You see it in dogs. The breeding malformations that cause undue suffering. But that will not stop humans from striving to be gods. A real ego trip.
Ivf babies are still in longitudinal studies. The (visible) malformations seem very minimal. Mental development seems somewhat delayed, but not significantly. However, studies are in full progress.
You are right about risks of dna manipulation. One is interfering with genetic characteristics, about still little is known. We may come to regret if we try to proceed too hastily.
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21-02-2020, 09:39 AM
30

Re: Boris Johnson urged to fire adviser who has voiced support for eugenics

Originally Posted by AnnieS ->
You cannot stop people having such views, but people with these views should not be in a position of power.
Why?

The views he expressed may shock some shrinking violets but the fact remains that what he said is backed up by cold hard reality.
 
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