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swimfeeders
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11-12-2018, 04:33 PM
1

How others see us.

Hi

An article from the Washington Post.

Similar articles are widespread abroad.

The Post's View Opinion
There’s no good way out of the Brexit disaster

Anti-Brexit protesters use illuminated signs as they demonstrate outside Parliament on Monday. (Christopher Furlong/Getty Images)
By Editorial Board December 10 at 5:46 PM
BRITAIN TOOK a step deeper into political turmoil Monday when Prime Minister Theresa May, facing certain defeat, postponed a parliamentary vote on the plan for Britain’s departure from the European Union that she had painstakingly negotiated with E.U. leaders. Ms. May said she would seek “further assurances” from Brussels on the most problematic piece of the agreement, a “backstop” to avoid a hard border between British Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Critics said it was unlikely she could obtain concessions that would satisfy dissenters in her own governing coalition, much less opponents seeking its ouster from power. Yet no other formula for ending the country’s self-destructive battle over Brexit seemed able, for now, of commanding a parliamentary majority. The likely result is weeks more of uncertainty and bitter debate.

At the heart of the chaos engulfing the United States’ closest ally is the contradiction between the vision sold to voters who supported leaving the European Union in a June 2016 referendum and the reality of the deal Ms. May came home with. Britons were told they could regain sovereignty from E.U. governance without suffering any economic consequences. In fact, any Brexit will leave the country poorer. That is true of the deal being offered by Ms. May. It is even more true of the “no-deal Brexit” that could occur next March 29 if Parliament does not act, causing massive disruption, including shortages of basic goods.

Yet even that is not the most dire prospect. Any deal that leaves Britain out of Europe’s single market could create a border between the two Irelands and threaten the peace accord that ended decades of violence in the North. Ms. May’s plan provides that if Britain and the European Union are unable to agree during a transition period on a relationship that avoids a hard border, Britain would remain in the E.U. customs union indefinitely. That would force London to continue observing E.U. regulations and prevent it from striking its own trade deals with other nations.


Ms. May told Parliament Monday that she would seek pledges from European leaders on limits to this Irish backstop. Yet there is no escaping the underlying reality that a full separation from Europe probably cannot happen without either redividing the two Irelands or drawing a line between Northern Ireland and the rest of Britain.

Rather than accept these facts, Ms. May’s opponents are opportunistically trying to employ them against her. The opposition Labour Party would like to force a new election, while Conservative party hard-liners would like to oust Ms. May. Both insist, implausibly, that they could obtain a better deal, ignoring categorical statements from the European continent to the contrary.

Ms. May evidently hopes that the lack of alternatives will eventually force Parliament to approve her plan. That would explain why she vehemently rejects the growing calls for a second referendum that would allow citizens to choose between the real-world Brexit now on offer and remaining in the union. The prime minister is not wrong in arguing that another popular vote could divide the country and weaken public faith in the political system. It may, however, be the least bad way out of the disaster that Britain has inflicted on itself.

We are seen as an International Joke now, a self inflicted disaster.
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11-12-2018, 06:02 PM
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Re: How others see us.

Originally Posted by swimfeeders ->
We are seen as an International Joke now, a self inflicted disaster.
And we really shouldn't care one jot about how we are seen because once we leave and once we resolve the issues and trade deals and all the other stuff, we will eventually be seen in a completely different light. We will ultimately be proven completely right in our choice to Leave and the world will then see us very differently.

As a nation that put freedoms and rights above globalisation and fiscal gain

As a nation that refused to be destroyed by a corrupt Communist collective.

As a nation that remains free in a world that is becoming increasingly enslaved and neutered.
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11-12-2018, 06:25 PM
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Re: How others see us.

Originally Posted by Realist ->
And we really shouldn't care one jot about how we are seen because once we leave and once we resolve the issues and trade deals and all the other stuff, we will eventually be seen in a completely different light. We will ultimately be proven completely right in our choice to Leave and the world will then see us very differently.

As a nation that put freedoms and rights above globalisation and fiscal gain

As a nation that refused to be destroyed by a corrupt Communist collective.

As a nation that remains free in a world that is becoming increasingly enslaved and neutered.
Hi

How long will that take?
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11-12-2018, 07:05 PM
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Re: How others see us.

Originally Posted by itsme ->
It is sad to see a newspaper from one of our colonies having a greater understanding of the situation than our selves and certainly some of those bigots on this forum.
On this forum several members have said exactly the same as the washington post. The EU has said this over and over again..
But many are rabidly paranoid in distrusting the EU (and before you react with the usual dismissive argument, look up the definition of paranoia). You brexiters block any sensible duscussion, so a solution will not be debatable here.
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11-12-2018, 07:36 PM
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Re: How others see us.

Originally Posted by Solasch ->
On this forum several members have said exactly the same as the washington post. The EU has said this over and over again..
But many are rabidly paranoid in distrusting the EU (and before you react with the usual dismissive argument, look up the definition of paranoia). You brexiters block any sensible duscussion, so a solution will not be debatable here.

Solasch, I totally agree with you and you have evidently misinterpreted my post.

To even accuse me of being a brexiter is hurtful in the extreme. Let me assure you that I am a European through and through (and proud of it) and I find this nonsense of leaving the EU totally repugnant.
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11-12-2018, 07:46 PM
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Re: How others see us.

Hi

I voted leave, I am not paranoid.

I hope that I do not try to block any discussions.

I just find it sad, that having voted to leave, our Politicians are sinking to levels of incompetence that have never been seen before.

They are ignoring what was voted for and are far more interested in fighting amongst themselves.

The whole shower of them need voting out.
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11-12-2018, 07:50 PM
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Re: How others see us.

Originally Posted by itsme ->
Solasch, I totally agree with you and you have evidently misinterpreted my post.

To even accuse me of being a brexiter is hurtful in the extreme. Let me assure you that I am a European through and through (and proud of it) and I find this nonsense of leaving the EU totally repugnant.
I deeply aplogize. I edited the post earlier by adding brexiters in trying to avoid you should feel adressed. Apperently I failed.
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11-12-2018, 08:11 PM
8

Re: How others see us.

Originally Posted by swimfeeders ->
Hi

I voted leave, I am not paranoid.

I hope that I do not try to block any discussions.

I just find it sad, that having voted to leave, our Politicians are sinking to levels of incompetence that have never been seen before.

They are ignoring what was voted for and are far more interested in fighting amongst themselves.

The whole shower of them need voting out.
I am astonished by the ignorance of some of your politicians. Today I heard one of them say May should return to the brussel's negotiation table and demand another/better deal. Hasn't it sunk in that the EU isn't interested how the UK leaves? And don't come again with the net payment of the UK. That is part of being in a family. Julie will be one of the first to understand that. As you know several former eastblock countries compleined about a rich country like the UK receiving a rebate. A 4,7 billion rebate that is payed by 26 countries, some of which are still living in the fifties. But in my view the rebate was fairly negotiated, so you have every right to it.
Sometimes I get a feeling that the UK expected us to beg you to stay in the EU. But it was a choice made by the people of UK however ill informed they were. So nobody in the EU will argue with that.
Today mrs May visited our pm and germany's chancelor. Both said the deal will not be re-negotiated, and sent mrs May on her way.

What makes it so difficult for the brits to admit they made a mistake by making the choice to leave?
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11-12-2018, 08:21 PM
9

Re: How others see us.

A lot of excitement, a lot of drama going down, but most people in this country don't have time for it, let alone people in foreign countries.

I do sometimes think about how London is currently being viewed by the rest of Europe, the rest of the world. But I don't think we're seen to be, or shown to be, handling bretix badly. It's just all too incomprehensible and therefore too utterly boring for them to want to know. I remember the day the brexit vote result was announced ... family in the US, Italy & Portugal were on the phone to say ... is this true, are you leaving Europe? None of them had any idea a madcap referendum had been called, who Farage was, the deep division caused. That is not news, just like May's delay is just more yawn-inducing politics.

The Paris riots? Now that's another matter. Complete with juicy graphics.
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11-12-2018, 08:26 PM
10

Re: How others see us.

Originally Posted by Solasch ->
I am astonished by the ignorance of some of your politicians. Today I heard one of them say May should return to the brussel's negotiation table and demand another/better deal. Hasn't it sunk in that the EU isn't interested how the UK leaves? And don't come again with the net payment of the UK. That is part of being in a family. Julie will be one of the first to understand that. As you know several former eastblock countries compleined about a rich country like the UK receiving a rebate. A 4,7 billion rebate that is payed by 26 countries, some of which are still living in the fifties. But in my view the rebate was fairly negotiated, so you have every right to it.
Sometimes I get a feeling that the UK expected us to beg you to stay in the EU. But it was a choice made by the people of UK however ill informed they were. So nobody in the EU will argue with that.
Today mrs May visited our pm and germany's chancelor. Both said the deal will not be re-negotiated, and sent mrs May on her way.

What makes it so difficult for the brits to admit they made a mistake by making the choice to leave?
....
 
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