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The Artful Todger
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The Artful Todger is offline
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08-05-2019, 09:10 AM
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Euthanasia, elective and non elective.

Assisted dying is all to slowly becoming available across Europe and hopefully will soon be available here in spite of the howls of protest from the Holy Joe's.

Yet until fairly recently the so-called Liverpool Care Pathway was all to often an appalling regime that quite literally starved a person to death. Even since it's (supposed) abandonment what has replaced it is equally awful for more than will ever be known.

Surely if a person is put on a treatment plan that offers little more than supposed pain management or if a person is aware of what is coming down the pike they should have the option to choose an early death?

Then there is the matter of the kids born with often catastrophic deformities or even mutations. Increasingly survival is becoming possible though only with extensive medical intervention and so huge cost.

This is being tackled in Europe using the Groningen Protocol which results in the euthanasia of newly born kids.

Is it not time that these and related matters are addressed and laws changed here in the UK?

I say yes.
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08-05-2019, 09:40 AM
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Re: Euthanasia, elective and non elective.

And I would say no. Most certainly no in the case of neonates who, obviously, have no voice and cannot decide for themselves. This is a highly emotional issue and we are into the realms of medical ethics and morality with this subject. I do not think this decision is for lay people or GPs or even for paediatric consultants to make.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2564470/
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08-05-2019, 10:24 AM
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Re: Euthanasia, elective and non elective.

I'd rather die than accept euthanasia Todger.....
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08-05-2019, 10:41 AM
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Re: Euthanasia, elective and non elective.

Originally Posted by OldGreyFox ->
I'd rather die than accept euthanasia Todger.....
Exactly!

Regards Donkeyman!
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08-05-2019, 10:44 AM
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Re: Euthanasia, elective and non elective.

Originally Posted by Aerolor ->
And I would say no. Most certainly no in the case of neonates who, obviously, have no voice and cannot decide for themselves. This is a highly emotional issue and we are into the realms of medical ethics and morality with this subject. I do not think this decision is for lay people or GPs or even for paediatric consultants to make.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2564470/
Who then Aerolor?
Donkeyman?
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08-05-2019, 10:58 AM
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Re: Euthanasia, elective and non elective.

Originally Posted by Aerolor ->
And I would say no. Most certainly no in the case of neonates who, obviously, have no voice and cannot decide for themselves. This is a highly emotional issue and we are into the realms of medical ethics and morality with this subject. I do not think this decision is for lay people or GPs or even for paediatric consultants to make.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2564470/
Similar views here ....
I fully support euthanasia for a mature adult, most particularly in the case of terminal disease and offering the option of a pain free death with dignity .....
but little nippers?
Not sure about that.
Don't regular scans pick up whether the developing foetus had a deformity or is developing incorrectly?
Then aren't the parents told? Parents choice.

If economics are to be a determining factor anyone who costs the Health service a lot could qualify for mandatory euthanasia. Is the idea is to weed out weak links and genetic throwbacks in search of the perfect race.
It sounds rather like going back to the days of dumping unwanted disabled babies outside in a heavy storm and hoping they get washed away or died of exposure.
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08-05-2019, 11:32 AM
7

Re: Euthanasia, elective and non elective.

Originally Posted by Donkeyman ->
Who then Aerolor?
Donkeyman?

Once a child is born I don't think anyone should make the decision of life or death for that child Donkeyman. If a child is so severely handicapped as to be considered terminal, then IMO there is a duty to provide first class palliative care to make sure the child is comfortable - not suffering - IMO, time and nature will decide. Once born, every child deserves a chance of life and some of the most serious of handicaps have proved that, in spite of a very poor outlook, there is quality of life and hope.
A dear friend of mine gave birth to a boy with severe spina bifida. His prognosis was very poor and he was not expected to live very long. Today, that child is a grown man who has managed to overcome or come to terms with so many difficulties. He is a lovely person and he has achieved a reasonably independent and fulfilling life. This is due in no small part to his dedicated parents who were not prepared to give up on him.
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08-05-2019, 12:08 PM
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Re: Euthanasia, elective and non elective.

Interesting and not unexpected replies. In the case of deformed kids, and we're not talking about cleft palate or club foot, let's not forget that only a few decades ago severely deformed or mutated kids were quietly put in a bowl and left to peg out from exposure, or were fed warm water to keep them quiet until they snuffed it. Very often the parents were totally unaware of this taking place.

I know this for an absolute fact.

Personally I believe that it was a good move because in most cases to even ask the mother of a damaged baby to make a call would be incredibly cruel, and I imagine that in most cases the reply would be a resounding no.

There is also the issue of genetic defects for example haemophilia.

I choose that rather than something like the consequences arising from a run of consanguineous marriages in order to avoid being dismissed as being anti muslim, although it is a serious and growing problem in the UK today that is costing us dear.

I know that if we had been told that a kid my wife was carrying was deformed an elective termination would have been a no brained and if a seriously deformed kid had been born or if damaged during birth then having the kid put down would have been our definite choice.

What I find particularly disgusting is nurturing conjoined twins.

What is clear is that advances in medicine resulting in kids with genetic defects surviving is pretty soon going to really cloud the human gene pool.
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08-05-2019, 12:08 PM
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Re: Euthanasia, elective and non elective.

Originally Posted by Aerolor ->
Once a child is born I don't think anyone should make the decision of life or death for that child Donkeyman. If a child is so severely handicapped as to be considered terminal, then IMO there is a duty to provide first class palliative care to make sure the child is comfortable - not suffering - IMO, time and nature will decide. Once born, every child deserves a chance of life and some of the most serious of handicaps have proved that, in spite of a very poor outlook, there is quality of life and hope.
A dear friend of mine gave birth to a boy with severe spina bifida. His prognosis was very poor and he was not expected to live very long. Today, that child is a grown man who has managed to overcome or come to terms with so many difficulties. He is a lovely person and he has achieved a reasonably independent and fulfilling life. This is due in no small part to his dedicated parents who were not prepared to give up on him.


I was thinking along similar lines Aerolor.

I would never forget, nor forgive myself if I allowed someone to 'kill' my child, then find out 10 years later they had discovered a cure.

I do feel differently about adults who are still capable of making their own choices though,
If I was in terrible agony day and night, every single day of my life, I might well choose to escape that if I had the option.

I have always said, vets would be in big legal trouble if they let an animal suffer all it's life, yet doctors are in big trouble if they don't end someone's suffering.
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08-05-2019, 12:36 PM
10

Re: Euthanasia, elective and non elective.

I accept your argument regarding unborn and young
children Aerolor, it removes the problem of who and ensures
that the patients dont suffer overly!
But as Mups says adults who are suuffering extreme pain
or have absolutely no quality of life should be able to choose
when and how to opt out of life !
I suppose dementia patients should be covered by the above
as well!

Best Regards Donkeyman!
 
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