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Donkeyman
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Donkeyman is offline
Melton,United Kingdom
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25-08-2020, 07:17 PM
11

Re: Barnier Spits his Dummy Out

Originally Posted by 7779311 ->
I am only seeing Barnier as the negotiator for the trading agreement. Brexit is done so his job is negotiating the future relationship.

In my opinion there he has acted very well. He is following the mandate which was given to him and he negotiates in the EUs interests. From the view of an EU citizen i think that is a success.

From your statement I guess that there is no appropriate negotiator in the EU available apart from unelected bureaucrats?

Given that both parties have red lines it becomes obvious that their positions for a trading relationship are not compatible. So far that is ok and nobody needs to be angry.

The EU will not play a significant role for the UKs wealth, this was stated by so many people so many times. So I think that we have to watch this silly game of futile "negotiations" until September/October and than it will be over.
Your last paragraph says it all, and l agree with entirely except that
I would alter the your opening statement to say " the eu has NEVER
played a significant role in CREATING UKs wealth, rather the
opposite??

Donkeyman! 🤔🤔🤔
Donkeyman
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Donkeyman is offline
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25-08-2020, 07:31 PM
12

Re: Barnier Spits his Dummy Out

Originally Posted by Solasch ->
I have to disagree with you on several points. Barnier, as an individual grown up with the shackles of the EU, has got his orders from the europarliament. He has no room for interpretation of his mandate. David frost however, grown up in a sovereign country, has a much more free spirit. If he deems it necessary he will extend the borders of his mandate or even transgress them. Barnier and frost are in different classes as negotiators.

On walking away from negotiations. The EU will abstain from that to avoid getting the blame for any disadvantageous outcome.

Boris cannot afford coming out of the trade negotiations without some sort of deal. Even a bare bones deal will do. No deal will reveal brexit for the disaster it is. It would be the end of boris' government.

But ah! Wait! Now I understand why the reshuffle of ministers boris announced for september is postponed and will be in january!
Boris will then declare: "this is not the brexit you people voted for, this is brino! My ministers didn't implement brexit the way I envisaged.".
After that he will sack most of the ministers, appoint new ones, and carry on implementing some more austerity. Boris looks after boris!
Oh Solly are you still dreaming?? Our last election provided Boris
with the mandate to get us out with an overwhelming vote of
confidence!! He does not need the slightest vestige of any deal to
cement his popularity,he is more likely to be popular by accepting
a deal is impossble and imposing a no deal!!
Wake up old boy, the dream is over!!

Donkeyman! 👍😁👍
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Bread
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Sudbury, United Kingdom
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25-08-2020, 07:31 PM
13

Re: Barnier Spits his Dummy Out

Originally Posted by Donkeyman ->
Your last paragraph says it all, and l agree with entirely except that
I would alter the your opening statement to say " the eu has NEVER
played a significant role in CREATING UKs wealth, rather the
opposite??

Donkeyman! 🤔🤔🤔

Exactly right DM

Plus, if the EU don't accept our offer they have 5 months to make alternative arrangements for the EU fishing fleet because they will be banned from fishing our waters with no quota or license.
7779311
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Germany
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25-08-2020, 08:11 PM
14

Re: Barnier Spits his Dummy Out

Originally Posted by Bread ->
Why not ask elected leaders what they think. At the moment the UK just increased the price of 800,000 german cars by 10%

If you hadn't noticed after 4 years, Barnier is still on page 1 of his mandate and hasn't even got to the bit about trade yet.

Instead he asking us to a trading relationship that exists nowhere else on earth. The uk is your biggest external single market worth over 300 billion a year - we are already buying goods from elsewhere and your business are moving here.

What was it you said he said he has succeeded in ?
I thought that you had someone specific in mind to replace M.Barnier. Let us assume for the moment that UKs and EUs red lines are to be taken seriously. If that is the case, then no common agreement is possible without crossing (uncrossable) red lines.

Otherwise we have to assume that the red lines are only posturing. Should that be the case - which I doubt - we just have to wait until the "who blinks first" moment.

Concerning the very special situation you mentioned: surely this situation is unique worldwide but I understand the arguments of both parties and as I said, I think that they are incompatible for a trade agreement. Sad but likely true I'm afraid.

Maybe I am very hair-splitting about M. Barnier, when I said that I am fine with his performance. You are right, from your point of view he did not achieve anything. From my point of view his achievment is the prevention of an unwanted situation.

Maybe it is worth to open an own thread about the question "why bother about a trade agreement with the EU when many people are convinced that the EU will be gone in the near future"?
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JBR
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Cheshire, UK
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25-08-2020, 08:11 PM
15

Re: Barnier Spits his Dummy Out

Originally Posted by 7779311 ->
Good lord that is one more item on the list of things which I envy the British people for. The "express"! What a great news site. Compared to that the German "Bild" even looks more like your "Financial Times". Absolutely fantastic, I cannot stop laughing.

And your sense of humour: fantastic! Michel Barnier as an "office clown". He is maybe the most respectable politician I have ever seen. If I only could see it your way...

But anyway, I think we all can agree that the EU will implode/explode/whatever very soon, at least that is being said in brexit forums very often. There must be some truth in it.

So if that is true why do the UK negotiators care anyway? The EU will be gone soon and any trade agreements will not make any sense anyway. Why don't they just walk away as B.Johnson promised 2 or three times?

I am sure the EU is playing the game only not to be blamed at the end. We all "know" that there will not be an FTA.
I'm afraid we can't just walk away, much as I'd like us to.
Unfortunately, Traitor May effectively signed us up to a 'withdrawal agreement' which entailed us discussing an agreement for a year.

Most of us, I suspect, would very much like to just walk away now and prepare to trade under WTO rules because, as you quite rightly say, there won't be a FTA. The EU are simply making the best of the 'transition period' during which we continue to pay into their coffers.
Donkeyman
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25-08-2020, 08:12 PM
16

Re: Barnier Spits his Dummy Out

Originally Posted by Bread ->
Exactly right DM

Plus, if the EU don't accept our offer they have 5 months to make alternative arrangements for the EU fishing fleet because they will be banned from fishing our waters with no quota or license.
Seems Barmy has played right into our hands then Bread ??
LOL!

Donkeyman! 👍👍😁😁
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25-08-2020, 08:12 PM
17

Re: Barnier Spits his Dummy Out

Originally Posted by Donkeyman ->
Oh Solly are you still dreaming?? Our last election provided Boris
with the mandate to get us out with an overwhelming vote of
confidence!! He does not need the slightest vestige of any deal to
cement his popularity,he is more likely to be popular by accepting
a deal is impossble and imposing a no deal!!
Wake up old boy, the dream is over!!

Donkeyman! 👍😁👍
My god, donkeyman, are you asleep? The withdrawal agreement was the deal boris needed to leave the EU. He got a worse deal than theresa may, but was able to sell it better to the british people.

The negotiations now have nothing whatsoever to do with leaving the EU. That is a done story. The negotiations are about how the UK and EU will move on into the future. Any majority boris has in the UK parliament amounts to nothing in the negotiations on trade.
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JBR
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Cheshire, UK
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25-08-2020, 08:20 PM
18

Re: Barnier Spits his Dummy Out

Originally Posted by 7779311 ->
In my opinion there he has acted very well. He is following the mandate which was given to him and he negotiates in the EUs interests. From the view of an EU citizen i think that is a success.
I'm sorry, but I disagree.

For 40 years, the EU mandarins have become used to dictating to us what we must and must not do.

This little Froggy is now stamping his feet in a temper tantrum because we're not following his orders this time!

Get used to it, Barmy. We are, once again, our own country. You have failed.

I like Germany and I like the Germans. I honestly feel that Germany, too, would be better off out of the EU.
Its withdrawal would, of course, be difficult as it is now so deeply involved financially.

Personally, I'd like to see a free-trade, but non-political agreement with Germany, along with other European countries (but not the Frogs - our traditional enemy!), rather like the EEC once was.
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Solasch
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Solasch is offline
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25-08-2020, 08:20 PM
19

Re: Barnier Spits his Dummy Out

Originally Posted by Donkeyman ->
Seems Barmy has played right into our hands then Bread ??
LOL!

Donkeyman! 👍👍😁😁
Barnier was just plain stupid. He thought the brits would keep their word and do what they promised in the political declaration. Boris signed it and the parliament (with boris' 80 seat majority) ratified it.
The brits really earn their title perfidious albion. Out of the EU. Good riddance.
7779311
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7779311 is male  7779311 has posted at least 25 times and has been a member for 3 months or more 
 
25-08-2020, 08:34 PM
20

Re: Barnier Spits his Dummy Out

Originally Posted by Solasch ->
I have to disagree with you on several points. Barnier, as an individual grown up with the shackles of the EU, has got his orders from the europarliament. He has no room for interpretation of his mandate. David frost however, grown up in a sovereign country, has a much more free spirit. If he deems it necessary he will extend the borders of his mandate or even transgress them. Barnier and frost are in different classes as negotiators.

On walking away from negotiations. The EU will abstain from that to avoid getting the blame for any disadvantageous outcome.

Boris cannot afford coming out of the trade negotiations without some sort of deal. Even a bare bones deal will do. No deal will reveal brexit for the disaster it is. It would be the end of boris' government.

But ah! Wait! Now I understand why the reshuffle of ministers boris announced for september is postponed and will be in january!
Boris will then declare: "this is not the brexit you people voted for, this is brino! My ministers didn't implement brexit the way I envisaged.".
After that he will sack most of the ministers, appoint new ones, and carry on implementing some more austerity. Boris looks after boris!
Your are surely right about the different classes of Frost and Barnier. Still Barniers limitations are there for a good reason and I am glad that he has his "orders" from a committee rather than being free to decide.

Of course this will not lead to a good agreement, there are no two equally free negotiators negotiating. Having no experience in international trade negotiations myself I can only imagine that the preconditions are becoming worse by this.

But still I do not like the idea of ignoring those important assets (the "red lines") just to press an agreement through. There is too much at stake and the UK have very clearly declared that they dont want/need/like the EU anyway.

About B.Johnson I must admit that I avoid listening to him, the same with the POTUS. It is very hard for me to endure the way he promisses everything and avoids answers during PMQs. Therefore your assumption about his reshuffle might be right...
 
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