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Bread
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22-04-2021, 11:08 AM
31

Re: Brussels opposes UK entry to the Lugano Convention legal pact

Originally Posted by Banchory ->
Why do you think contracts would reference the Lugano Convention?

Iíve let many contracts for supply or works and as the client The choice is either either English or Scottish law with most being under English law. No need to mention the Lugano Convention at all.

The only changes to paperwork would most likely be at government level but that would be a minor element of the Brexit related changes that will need to be undertaken

The losers are joe public who will lose access to a simpler method of legal redress
I don't think you understand the Lugano Convention.

The Lugano convention is used to determine vice-versa jurisdictions in contracts. The actual jurisdictions have not changed - it simply means that if Germany has a contract with France, the text would say something like, "jurisdictions are determined under the Lugano convention" instead of saying that disputes would come under the jurisdiction of Germany and resolved under the jurisdiction of Germany (something like that).

Now we have left the Lugano convention we need to reword contracts to spell out who the jurisdiction is because neither side under a UK contract would be able to apply the Lugano Convention because we left.

The legalities of jurisdiction remain unchanged. The Uk is the jurisdiction for disputes under UK contracts and the 27 under theirs for their contracts.
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22-04-2021, 11:43 AM
32

Re: Brussels opposes UK entry to the Lugano Convention legal pact

Originally Posted by Bread ->
I don't think you understand the Lugano Convention.

The Lugano convention is used to determine vice-versa jurisdictions in contracts. The actual jurisdictions have not changed - it simply means that if Germany has a contract with France, the text would say something like, "jurisdictions are determined under the Lugano convention" instead of saying that disputes would come under the jurisdiction of Germany and resolved under the jurisdiction of Germany (something like that).

Now we have left the Lugano convention we need to reword contracts to spell out who the jurisdiction is because neither side under a UK contract would be able to apply the Lugano Convention because we left.

The legalities of jurisdiction remain unchanged. The Uk is the jurisdiction for disputes under UK contracts and the 27 under theirs for their contracts.
I understand the workings and benefits of the convention very well.

However there is no need for contracts to reference the Lugano Convention so ask you again, why to you think contracts would need amending for something they do moult contain or reference as the law applicable would be clearly defined in each and every contract.
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Bread
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22-04-2021, 12:11 PM
33

Re: Brussels opposes UK entry to the Lugano Convention legal pact

Originally Posted by Banchory ->
I understand the workings and benefits of the convention very well.

However there is no need for contracts to reference the Lugano Convention so ask you again, why to you think contracts would need amending for something they do moult contain or reference as the law applicable would be clearly defined in each and every contract.
Because they contain the wrong references now we have left the Lugano Convention.

That's the whole point

We have asked to join the LC to avoid this - or we and 27 member states will all be updating contracts to rephrase this section. The EU not recognising the UK as a Lugano state is sheer stupidity and bureucratic nonsense on their side.

We are actually doing the 27 a favour by asking to join
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22-04-2021, 02:18 PM
34

Re: Brussels opposes UK entry to the Lugano Convention legal pact

Originally Posted by Bread ->
Because they contain the wrong references now we have left the Lugano Convention.

That's the whole point

We have asked to join the LC to avoid this - or we and 27 member states will all be updating contracts to rephrase this section. The EU not recognising the UK as a Lugano state is sheer stupidity and bureucratic nonsense on their side.

We are actually doing the 27 a favour by asking to join
The point is that no one putting together a contract would reference the the Lugano Convention so there would not be anything to amend.

Have you ever put together a contract for a tender that thatís published in OJEU?

To quote a favourite Brexiteer mantra, as we buy more from the EU than the EU buys from us logic would indicate itís more in the interest of the U.K.

I think itís a good idea because it give easier access to legal redress for ordinary people however it may or may not be practical with the deregulation and divergence that Brexit might bring
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22-04-2021, 04:12 PM
35

Re: Brussels opposes UK entry to the Lugano Convention legal pact

Originally Posted by Banchory ->
The point is that no one putting together a contract would reference the the Lugano Convention so there would not be anything to amend.

Have you ever put together a contract for a tender that thatís published in OJEU?

To quote a favourite Brexiteer mantra, as we buy more from the EU than the EU buys from us logic would indicate itís more in the interest of the U.K.

I think itís a good idea because it give easier access to legal redress for ordinary people however it may or may not be practical with the deregulation and divergence that Brexit might bring

I've had a career over contracts Banchory, globally, from a UK standpoint and globally from Switzerland, USA, France and Germany.

As for your first comment - your agreeing with me, the difference is that from now they would not use the Lugano convention, whereas over the past decades since we were a Lugano state we did when forming contracts.

So in order to make sure those contracts remain valid in terms of jurisdiction, they need updating to declare the countries which would act as judiciary over disputes.

I've said this about 6 times now.
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22-04-2021, 04:34 PM
36

Re: Brussels opposes UK entry to the Lugano Convention legal pact

Originally Posted by Bread ->
I've had a career over contracts Banchory, globally, from a UK standpoint and globally from Switzerland, USA, France and Germany.

As for your first comment - your agreeing with me, the difference is that from now they would not use the Lugano convention, whereas over the past decades since we were a Lugano state we did when forming contracts.

So in order to make sure those contracts remain valid in terms of jurisdiction, they need updating to declare the countries which would act as judiciary over disputes.

I've said this about 6 times now.
And youíve been wrong six times in that no contract would cite or refer to the Lugano Convention so no amendments required

Youíve previously stated great you were in labelling and then IT in pharmaceuticals, now your career is as a contract specialist!
Is there anything youíve not done?

As a contract specialist you obviously know contracts contain clause dealing with dispute resolution and escalation such as adjudication and arbitration but never for litigation which is what the Lugano Convention deals with and falls under Tort. So lease elucidate what part of a contract would require amending?
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22-04-2021, 04:45 PM
37

Re: Brussels opposes UK entry to the Lugano Convention legal pact

Originally Posted by Banchory ->
And youíve been wrong six times in that no contract would cite or refer to the Lugano Convention so no amendments required

Youíve previously stated great you were in labelling and then IT in pharmaceuticals, now your career is as a contract specialist!
Is there anything youíve not done?

As a contract specialist you obviously know contracts contain clause dealing with dispute resolution and escalation such as adjudication and arbitration but never for litigation which is what the Lugano Convention deals with and falls under Tort. So lease elucidate what part of a contract would require amending?
He already has above.
Turning this into a between the two of you isn't going to change anything.
Again: it is how we already deal with disputes from around the world, and it can't be such a bad option since our trade with the rest of the world has been increasing in recent years whereas our trade with the EU has been decreasing.
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Bread
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22-04-2021, 06:03 PM
38

Re: Brussels opposes UK entry to the Lugano Convention legal pact

Originally Posted by Banchory ->
And youíve been wrong six times in that no contract would cite or refer to the Lugano Convention so no amendments required

Youíve previously stated great you were in labelling and then IT in pharmaceuticals, now your career is as a contract specialist!
Is there anything youíve not done?

As a contract specialist you obviously know contracts contain clause dealing with dispute resolution and escalation such as adjudication and arbitration but never for litigation which is what the Lugano Convention deals with and falls under Tort. So lease elucidate what part of a contract would require amending?

I've done many things Banchory.

But I've never heard of anyone joining a convention then not using it. Any part of a contract which references the Lugano Convention which is between the UK and another Lugano State at the time the contract was signed when the UK was a member of the Lugano Convention would need updating

That's 7 times now you've been told.
Banchory
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22-04-2021, 11:43 PM
39

Re: Brussels opposes UK entry to the Lugano Convention legal pact

Originally Posted by Bread ->
I've done many things Banchory.

But I've never heard of anyone joining a convention then not using it. Any part of a contract which references the Lugano Convention which is between the UK and another Lugano State at the time the contract was signed when the UK was a member of the Lugano Convention would need updating

That's 7 times now you've been told.
You might have done many things compiling, tendering and administering contract is certainly not one of them.

Who said anything about not using the convention, it doesnít have to be referenced in a contract to use it as it is enshrined in statute law.

The 2007 Lugano Convention was incorporated into UK law by the Civil Jurisdiction and Judgments Regulations 2009. It is also enshrined in EU member states laws.

As contracts clearly define the national law applicable there is no need to reference any constituent of that law or amend any wording in a contract.

Changes in law might alter the scope or requirement of the contract so could be considered to be a variation which requires agreement in writing by both parties however, contracts do not consider or reference methods of litigation so the point is mute.

You also still donít understand the key benefit of the Lugano Convention is where there is a consumer contract, they can sue the other party to the consumer contract in their home courts which is of enormous benefit to a the consumer who is usually the weaker party
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23-04-2021, 06:31 AM
40

Re: Brussels opposes UK entry to the Lugano Convention legal pact

Hi

The point is being missed.

We wanted a clean break, we got it and the EU are saying we cannot cherry the bits that we want.

Out means out.

All we have is an interim very restricted trade deal with the EU.
 
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