18-01-2019, 11:25 AM
51
Re: Leavers and Remainers, A Call For Unity?
Originally Posted by swimfeeders
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hiwe voted leave, entirely understandable.
What nobody expected was that our government would mess it up so badly.
Leaving would always hurt financially, but it would have been the financial elite which suffered, no more huge bonuses for the bankers etc.
I have no sympathy for them at all.
The problem now is that it will hurt everyone.
The ordinary people who work for a living
we are simply not ready to leave under a no deal.
The best analogy i have is the charge of the light brigade, stunning, but useless.
It is the ordinary people who will suffer, not the elite.
The eu could have been good for us, on a level with france and germany.
We blew it, a political nightmare.
I loathe juncker, i have had to sit at the next table in a very expensive restaurant listening to him bragging about running us ragged.
My predicable area of expertise is very narrow, immigration and terrorism.
Run over by theresa may after years of bringing the french on side.
She gave in, purely on the grounds of cost.
My secondary area is health, my origins.
She has decimated that as well.
I am at a complete loss to understand why anyone could want her to continue in charge.
Hard though it may be to some.
Time to dump her, stop article 50 and start again.
We need to get out, but she is a disaster.
18-01-2019, 11:36 AM
52
Re: Leavers and Remainers, A Call For Unity?
Originally Posted by Banchory
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You miss the point. It’s not down to the people whether we leave or ny be the remainders or leavers
We have a Parliamentary democracy where under the law parliament is sovereign so parliament will decide whether we are leaving or not
Currently Article 50 has been invoked under an Act of Parliament but given what’s going on in parliament who knows what will happen
Also, no matter what people may think, there is no obligation for MPs to vote in accord with the result of the referendum or how their constituency voted.
The Government however do have an obligation to take into consideration the result of the referendum which TM thinks she has done in her deal
I'm curious if this was any other referendum would they get away with not enacting it ? Scotland or Wales vote to leave UK and then get ignored ? there would be violence !
18-01-2019, 12:00 PM
53
Re: Leavers and Remainers, A Call For Unity?
Originally Posted by JBR
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I am very happy we can agree on something JBR.
We both agree on the need to get out.
Where we differ is this.
No Deal was a perfectly good option after the Referendum, time to get it sussed and sorted.
Two years to sort things out, continue our Free Trade Deals with the 40 odd Countries we have as part of the EU, minimise the damage and present a strong case to the EU.
We are ready to go.
Are you?
A much stronger bargaining position.
Instead we have done sod all, Juncker is laughing at us, knows we are not ready to leave and I hate the thought of giving him and Merkel a penny.
Where we differ is this.
I am a boring Geek, I know we are not ready, and this annoys me.
It really does.
There is no point in Government paying me and others, what many on this Forum consider to be outrageous sums of money, if they do not listen.
I am often accused of being a Remainer in disguise on this Forum.
I am nothing of the sort, I am simply appalled by the mess we are in and am totally against a No Deal, because that would be handing the EU money on a plate.
It saddens that the UK has been run over by an aging drunkard.
We need to leave, as soon as possible, and at as little cost as possible.
Theresa May is not the one to do this for us.
18-01-2019, 03:21 PM
54
Re: Leavers and Remainers, A Call For Unity?
Originally Posted by swimfeeders
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HiI am very happy we can agree on something JBR.
We both agree on the need to get out.
I'd like to apologise to you for having lost my temper with you in the past but, to be honest, you sometimes come across (in my mind) as rather condescending.
Nevertheless, I tend to agree with most of what you say, and shall try to be more polite in future.
18-01-2019, 11:01 PM
55
Re: Leavers and Remainers, A Call For Unity?
Originally Posted by Julie1962
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But when they passed the buck to us and said vote on it then they gave us the power and were supposed to follow our lead on this one occasion. I'm curious if this was any other referendum would they get away with not enacting it ? Scotland or Wales vote to leave UK and then get ignored ? there would be violence !
I understand that it was / is possible to make a referendum legally binding and I’m surprised that the Tory Brexiteers did not insist upon it.
There were conservative members of parliament who opposed the welsh assembly referendum so Brexit is not unique in this matter
There are frequent references to violence on this forum. While I understand that there can be feelings of frustration and anger, if any referendum was not enacted and that was entirely within the law there can be no just excuse for anything but peaceful protest.
I doubt that the Welsh would have taken to violence though
Perhaps if Arhicle 50 is extended the solution might be yo go for a legally binding second referendum. The difficult would be determining the questions to keep all sides happy and then there is the issue of how to stop third party interference and influencing via social media
19-01-2019, 12:16 AM
56
Re: Leavers and Remainers, A Call For Unity?
Originally Posted by Julie1962
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But when they passed the buck to us and said vote on it then they gave us the power and were supposed to follow our lead on this one occasion. I'm curious if this was any other referendum would they get away with not enacting it ? Scotland or Wales vote to leave UK and then get ignored ? there would be violence !
19-01-2019, 03:32 PM
58
Re: Leavers and Remainers, A Call For Unity?
Originally Posted by Banchory
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They gave you and everyone else a vote but retained the power in that sovereignty was retained by parliament. And the government only has an obligation to take into consideration the result I understand that it was / is possible to make a referendum legally binding and I’m surprised that the Tory Brexiteers did not insist upon it.
There were conservative members of parliament who opposed the welsh assembly referendum so Brexit is not unique in this matter
There are frequent references to violence on this forum. While I understand that there can be feelings of frustration and anger, if any referendum was not enacted and that was entirely within the law there can be no just excuse for anything but peaceful protest.
I doubt that the Welsh would have taken to violence though
Perhaps if Arhicle 50 is extended the solution might be yo go for a legally binding second referendum. The difficult would be determining the questions to keep all sides happy and then there is the issue of how to stop third party interference and influencing via social media
19-01-2019, 03:33 PM
59
Re: Leavers and Remainers, A Call For Unity?
Originally Posted by Banchory
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They gave you and everyone else a vote but retained the power in that sovereignty was retained by parliament. And the government only has an obligation to take into consideration the result
Our "democracy" and democratic system is predicated on Parliament undertaking the choices of the voting masses.
If you held a General Election and Labour won, but Parliament said :
"well we will take your wishes into consideration but in the final analysis we think we would be better to maintain a Tory government with some Labour input"
there would be uproar and protest and likely violence on an unprecedented scale.
So frankly your "small print" doesn't really hold any merit.
For the government to hold a referendum and ask the people to make the effort to vote, requires that they accept the decision and act on it.
The moment they fail to do that (whether legal or not) they destroy the ILLUSION of democracy and reveal to the millions of citizens that they actually live in a dictatorship.
Now, hey, if that's the route they want to go down, if they truly are no longer bothered about maintaining this false illusion of democracy and choice then by all means, let 'em put out their dictatorship stand and see what reaction they get.
Currently, I have to say, that appears to be what they are doing. They are basically ignoring the referendum and are plotting ways to overturn that result because they don't like it.
They find themselves in a perilous position.
They are having to weigh up, possibly for the first time, which is more important to them:
1) Maintaining the illusion of democracy or
2) Being in the EU and moving towards the Communist Federal States of Europe
Thus far it is looking like they are favouring No 2 there. Or rather it is the EU themselves who are weighing up the benefits of forcing the UK to stay in the EU vs the bursting of the democracy illusion bubble that would result.
I'm under no allusions. Our government are NOT UK people, they are EU people. They are working for the EU, answering to their EU masters and doing what they are told to do.
They do NOT serve this country nor its people. They have every intention of destroying the UK sovereignty and destroying the entire notion of Nationality. They have over the past 40 years undertaken the tasks to sell this country down the river into the EU by stealth and skulduggery.
We are fools if we think for even one second these same people would provide us with a way to Leave the EU.
It just won't happen. Never.
The UK's only course of action is to remove the EU operatives within government and put in their place true politicians who will dutifully represent the needs of the country and the wishes of its people.
That requires a revolution of some kind.
19-01-2019, 03:35 PM
60
Re: Leavers and Remainers, A Call For Unity?
Originally Posted by Julie1962
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As far as I can see article 50 made the referendum legally binding at that point. When they voted for it we were contracted to leave on a certain date.
But it won't stop them fudging it and either cancelling Article 50 or delaying it indefinitely until such time as they feel confident they can hold a 2nd referendum to ley Remain win.
They are in a total pickle because they have no intention of letting us Leave the EU and so need to find suitable ways of making that totalitarian dictatorial decision palatable to the populous.
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