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keezoy
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01-05-2021, 11:29 AM
21

Re: Remainers Were Wrong About Literally Everything

Originally Posted by Bread ->
We aren't disassociating ourselves from Europe, we are leaving the European Union. The member states and the EU are two different things.

The EU is not just a trade deal, what started as a single market for goods ended up being a political framework run by unelected officials which, by signing up to the Lisbon Treaty every member state was bound by. Although it may work for other member states, it has not ever really worked for the UK. We have opposed most EU laws and policies historically which shows just how much the UK was a bad fit for the project. We already have our own union, our own single market, common currency, centralised treasury, customs union open borders, ultimate arbitrator an have for hundreds of years. Integrating what we already have with another union was never going to work. We had already rejected the Euro we rejected Schengen and we rejected PESCO among other things.

Australia, remember, did a similar thing and broke free of the UK Empire as a sovereign nation, as we have through Brexit.
OK well that's helpful. Thanks. ..LOts more to discuss about the federation process in Australia but that's for another day..and another thread. Although I doubt anybody here would be interested.
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01-05-2021, 12:12 PM
22

Re: Remainers Were Wrong About Literally Everything

Originally Posted by keezoy ->
OK well that's helpful. Thanks. ..LOts more to discuss about the federation process in Australia but that's for another day..and another thread. Although I doubt anybody here would be interested.
Busy people, these australians.

The following are Australia’s free trade agreements (listed with the entry-into-force date).

Australia-New Zealand (ANZCERTA or CER)*– 1 January 1983Singapore-Australia (SAFTA)*– 28 July 2003Australia-United States (AUSFTA)*– 1 January 2005Thailand-Australia (TAFTA)*– 1 January 2005Australia-Chile (ACl-FTA)*– 6 March 2009ASEAN-Australia-New Zealand (AANZFTA)*– 1 January 2010 for eight countries: Australia, New Zealand, Brunei, Burma, Malaysia, the Philippines, Singapore and Vietnam. For Thailand: 12 March 2010. For Laos: 1 January 2011. For Cambodia: 4 January 2011. For Indonesia: 10 January 2012Malaysia-Australia (MAFTA)*– 1 January 2013Korea-Australia (KAFTA)*– 12 December 2014Japan-Australia (JAEPA)*– 15 January 2015China-Australia (ChAFTA)*– 20 December 2015Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP)*– 30 December 2018Australia-Hong Kong (A-HKFTA)*– 17 January 2020Peru-Australia (PAFTA)*— 11 February 2020Indonesia- Australia Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement (IA-CEPA)*– 5 July 2020Pacific Agreement on Closer Economic Relations (PACER) Plus*– 13 December 2020

FTAs concluded but not yet in force

The Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP)

On 15 November 2020, Ministers from 15 countries signed the Agreement.

FTAs under negotiation

Australia-European Union
Free Trade AgreementAustralia-Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC)
Free Trade AgreementAustralia-India Comprehensive Economic Cooperation Agreement
Australia-United Kingdom Free Trade Agreement
Environmental Goods Agreement
Pacific Alliance Free Trade Agreement
Trade in Services Agreement
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01-05-2021, 12:17 PM
23

Re: Remainers Were Wrong About Literally Everything

Originally Posted by Bread ->
We aren't disassociating ourselves from Europe, we are leaving the European Union. The member states and the EU are two different things.

The EU is not just a trade deal, what started as a single market for goods ended up being a political framework run by unelected officials which, by signing up to the Lisbon Treaty every member state was bound by. Although it may work for other member states, it has not ever really worked for the UK. We have opposed most EU laws and policies historically which shows just how much the UK was a bad fit for the project. We already have our own union, our own single market, common currency, centralised treasury, customs union open borders, ultimate arbitrator an have for hundreds of years. Integrating what we already have with another union was never going to work. We had already rejected the Euro we rejected Schengen and we rejected PESCO among other things.

Australia, remember, did a similar thing and broke free of the UK Empire as a sovereign nation, as we have through Brexit.

Even the DE cannot deny it any longer!

British expats clash over Brexit: 'If you voted Leave, keep your gob shut!'

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/14...e-eu-spain-spt
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01-05-2021, 12:22 PM
24

Re: Remainers Were Wrong About Literally Everything

Originally Posted by keezoy ->
Apart from China (The regime..not the people)..who gives everybody the sh*ts..(1) We in the Indo Pacific manage to trade and get on with each other pretty well most of the time. We..with the aforementioned exception - all seem to be happy with our trade deals. Why does Britain feel so eager to disassociate itself from Europe? I get the impression from some here that it's because they feel Britain has been hard done by or that they have been dudded (2) by Europe. Is this the case?..If the tone of what's being said here is an indication of what the communication is usually like I guess I can't be surprised. Is it possible to have a vigorous discussion and even disagreement while maintaining some manners??

(1) With the exception of North Korea that is. That stable, enlightened, democratic and totally decent regime just loves them.

(2) Duped, scammed etc
I'd like to answer Keezoy but to be complete and fair I should warn you that doing so in a few words isn't possible.
This then is quite lengthy so if you're not that interested, jumping foreward to the last paragraph might be enough for you.


First Keezoy I should point out that the UK doesn't want to dissasociate itself from Europe.
The EU yes; Europe no.
The two are hugely-different entities.
Many of us love French & German wines & cars, Spanish & Greek holidays etcetera etcetera.
We don't however tend to like the ever-increasing federalism and bureaucracy of the EU.

One of the biggest reasons that the UK wanted out of the EU is because we want to be free to trade with the whole world.
Within the EU that just wasn't possible because (basically) the EU is protectionist.
The UK could not for example negotiate a trade deal with El Salvador with (say) their coffee & sugar coming to us and our farming & construction machinery going to them, oh no.
It has to be done through the EU.

Which would be fine if the EU then agreed & negotiated on our behalf, except that what the UK wants is frequently not what others in the EU want and vice-versa.
When you consider that the EU is (now) 27 countries each with their own requirements you might begin to realise how there will always be some that gain and some that lose out.

"Dudded" by the EU?
Well to some degree.
It's a fact that the EU treated the UK pretty much like a money tree, seeking huge extra sums at short notice when our economy did well for example.
Much of the sentiment might well be the result of past UK governments too, with their desire not to rock the EU boat and also by sometimes nefarious actions as in John Major and the Maastricht Treaty; I suspect that if the UK had been given a referendum then as in Ireland & Denmark things would be very different today.
There are lots of smaller niggles/irritations besides though which yes, probably led to many feeling aggrieved.

The tone in here (this part of the forum) is indeed an indication of the EU's attitudes, and sadly a very accurate one at that.

From the time the referendum result was announced, politicians across the EU became quite hostile and bitter towards the UK.
Instead of asking where they had gone wrong it very quickly became acrimonious with senior politicians both of the EU and of EU member countries turning quite venomous at times.
From "You will pay" to the "special place in hell for Brexiteers" with much, much more besides the EU really only confirmed what many of those who voted to leave suspected all along.
When the EU's leader mouth-farted the UK's Prime Minister it didn't exactly set a great example for anybody else or do much to persuade Brexit-voting Brits that they might have been wrong.
Little of what emerged was of a tone which you should expect from politicians who are supposedly ambassadors for their constituents or people.
Even just prior to the European Parliament ratifying the deal this week an Italian MEP felt compelled to apologize to the UK for how his fellow MEP's and the EU had treated the UK.
That speaks volumes.

So no Keezoy, sadly it isn't really surprising to see the tone of a thread lowered in such a way.
On a positive note: those fanatically pro-EU (and there aren't many despite appearances) have increasingly less options for trying to promote their often-unreasonable stances and behaviours.

It is after all quite difficult to effectively or reasonably argue against a mounting pile of evidence that the UK is so far doing okay without the EU.
The reasonable among us know that things can change and very quickly too, but as of now five months in and despite the often dire warnings of severe consequences of leaving the EU we seem to be doing okay.
We all know to be wary of forecasts but these pretty much universally suggest that we will continue to do better than okay for at least the next few years.
Time will tell on that but for now we've certainly not sunk.

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01-05-2021, 12:24 PM
25

Re: Remainers Were Wrong About Literally Everything

Originally Posted by Solasch ->
Even the DE cannot deny it any longer!

British expats clash over Brexit: 'If you voted Leave, keep your gob shut!'

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/14...e-eu-spain-spt

What's this got to do with this thread ?
keezoy
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01-05-2021, 01:12 PM
26

Re: Remainers Were Wrong About Literally Everything

Hey that is brilliant from all of you. Lots to read..and i will read ALL of it....lots to digest and given without an iota of sarcasm . Even better. Thanks for taking the time. It is appreciated...really.
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01-05-2021, 01:30 PM
27

Re: Remainers Were Wrong About Literally Everything

Originally Posted by keezoy ->
OK well that's helpful. Thanks. ..LOts more to discuss about the federation process in Australia but that's for another day..and another thread. Although I doubt anybody here would be interested.

Set up a separate thread about it. I'm interested
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01-05-2021, 01:47 PM
28

Re: Remainers Were Wrong About Literally Everything

Originally Posted by keezoy ->
Hey that is brilliant from all of you. Lots to read..and i will read ALL of it....lots to digest and given without an iota of sarcasm . Even better. Thanks for taking the time. It is appreciated...really.
I realize that it might be difficult to get certain information where you are so if you want any pointers towards something that interests you but you're having trouble finding it just let me know; by PM is fine by me if you don't want to ask in the forums (where I might not even see it).

Meanwhile enjoy & like Bread I'd be interested on a thread about Oz's federation process.
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01-05-2021, 02:00 PM
29

Re: Remainers Were Wrong About Literally Everything

Sure. It's a big subject. I wont start a thread but I'll get some stuff together and post it.
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01-05-2021, 02:03 PM
30

Re: Remainers Were Wrong About Literally Everything

Originally Posted by keezoy ->
Sure. It's a big subject. I wont start a thread but I'll get some stuff together and post it.


Just please not in the Brexit part of the forum.

Not trying to teach granny how to suck eggs or dictate mind, but possibly the "Politics & Govt" part of "Discussion" might be appropriate?
 
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