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Julie1962
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24-02-2018, 04:18 PM
11

Re: Conservatives historically selfdestruct over Europe

Oddly when we have elections I don't tend to step back and say I'm not part of it, we have a conservative government I didn't vote for bug that doesn't give me a right to bring them down, we have to wait for next election. Until then they are my government too.

Btw I ignore when people name call I falls calm and reasonable conversation I listen again.
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Morticia
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24-02-2018, 04:20 PM
12

Re: Conservatives historically selfdestruct over Europe

Originally Posted by Moscow ->
It's only a problem and a shambles for Remainers who are wanting the negotiations to flounder and are looking for the merest of cracks to further their agenda of stopping Brexit.

We voted for Brexit and if the EU are determined to undermine that so be it. We leave anyway and we all suffer the consequences of their intransigence.
That just about sums it up for me. Well said.
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twizzle
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24-02-2018, 05:24 PM
13

Re: Conservatives historically selfdestruct over Europe

Originally Posted by Julie1962 ->
Oddly when we have elections I don't tend to step back and say I'm not part of it, we have a conservative government I didn't vote for bug that doesn't give me a right to bring them down, we have to wait for next election. Until then they are my government too.

Btw I ignore when people name call I falls calm and reasonable conversation I listen again.
When we have an election, we have a chance to put that right by voting in the next election or working towards a vote of no confidence. The other parties form an opposition able to vote against the government. We can also campaign and protest against what the government does and work towards getting one we prefer in next time. The Brexiters don't want to allow any of that on the EU decision.

But I disagree anyway with the idea that if a government is elected that I voted against, they are automatically "my " government. They most certainly are not. They can only represent and speak for the people who voted for them, they certainly don't speak for or represent me. As far as I'm concerned they are something imposed on me by others and are only there to fight against and get out next time.

This Tory government is not "my" government in any shape or form and they do not speak for me on Brexit.

BTW on the ignoring thing, how do you know if I'm name calling, or calm and reasonable, (by your definitions) if you have me on ignore and can't read my posts?
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Moscow
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24-02-2018, 05:49 PM
14

Re: Conservatives historically selfdestruct over Europe

Originally Posted by twizzle ->
Cutting off your nose to spite your face. "We" didn't vote for Brexit, you did and we'll all be suffering the consequences of the Brexiters intransigience, not the EU's.

There was never any possible good outcome to Brexit, yet still pursuing it relentlesly. May's "three baskets" is just another version of having our cake and eating it. You leave a club, you don't get to cherry pick which bits you keep.

Least worst outcome, "a Brexit in name but not in reality" and staying in the Customs Union, leaving us with an easier route back in. But we'll still have lost a lot and will be worse off in the future for it.
It will be the EU cutting off its nose to spite its face.
We are not looking to 'keep bits' of our EU membership but to construct a new post Brexit relationship.
That's the bit you are deliberately fudging.
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24-02-2018, 06:19 PM
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Re: Conservatives historically selfdestruct over Europe

A new post Brexit relationship where you cherry pick the advantageous bits of being part of EU without accepting the responsibilities, principles or cost. Have your cake and eat it was never going to happen.
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Moscow
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24-02-2018, 08:17 PM
16

Re: Conservatives historically selfdestruct over Europe

Originally Posted by twizzle ->
A new post Brexit relationship where you cherry pick the advantageous bits of being part of EU without accepting the responsibilities, principles or cost. Have your cake and eat it was never going to happen.
With respect, the whole concept of a closed shop, protectionist, dictatorial political entity that is in the pockets of globalist business interests is not something I want to be a part of under any circumstances. I'm shocked that the so called liberal intelligentsia has nailed it;s colours to this flag and not found an alternative ideal for people to consider .

The EU has morphed from a trading arrangement to an undemocratic pan European dictatorial empire that offers protection for taxes. Caligula would recognise it well and be most at home in Brussels !!
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swimfeeders
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25-02-2018, 11:05 AM
17

Re: Conservatives historically selfdestruct over Europe

Hi

The Electorate voted to leave,the whole point is that we accept this,it is democracy.

Those who voted Remain have every right to continue to express their views,again,a democracy.

An analogy.

If Corbyn wins the next election, I will respect that decision.

I will not however get behind him and support him, I loathe the man and his Politics.

As regards the EU, they are not cutting off their noses to spite their face.

We voted Leave, we are now a Country seeking a Trade Agreement with them.

They will give us a Trade Agreement which suits them, not us.

That is the real world.

The EU could have got really nasty,no Transition Period, you put Article 50 in,you leave next March.

Your choice,not ours.

They could have said when you leave your 40 odd Trade Agreements you have as part of the EU cease,as do the 700 over Technical Areements.

They did not,they are supporting us in this.
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Moscow
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25-02-2018, 06:41 PM
18

Re: Conservatives historically selfdestruct over Europe

Originally Posted by swimfeeders ->
Hi

The Electorate voted to leave,the whole point is that we accept this,it is democracy.

Those who voted Remain have every right to continue to express their views,again,a democracy.

An analogy.

If Corbyn wins the next election, I will respect that decision.

I will not however get behind him and support him, I loathe the man and his Politics.

As regards the EU, they are not cutting off their noses to spite their face.

We voted Leave, we are now a Country seeking a Trade Agreement with them.

They will give us a Trade Agreement which suits them, not us.

That is the real world.

The EU could have got really nasty,no Transition Period, you put Article 50 in,you leave next March.

Your choice,not ours.

They could have said when you leave your 40 odd Trade Agreements you have as part of the EU cease,as do the 700 over Technical Areements.

They did not,they are supporting us in this.
But we are not 'just another' Country, swim.

The UK is a current EU member that is leaving at the behest of it's electorate and is seeking to frame a post membership political and trading framework.
We are paying good money for this two year negotiating period ( That's the whole point of the two year delay in leaving in case you have forgotten) and we are paying to be treated fairly and respectfully and not to suffer the bitter, angry ego deflated rantings of a bunch of unelected European Fascistocrats.

The EU need to rise above their anger, embarrassment and disappointment at losing us as a member and create a post Brexit relationship that works for both parties as both parties have much to gain and much to lose..

How you can support the EU stance is baffling and does you little credit!
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swimfeeders
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25-02-2018, 11:07 PM
19

Re: Conservatives historically selfdestruct over Europe

Originally Posted by Moscow ->
But we are not 'just another' Country, swim.

The UK is a current EU member that is leaving at the behest of it's electorate and is seeking to frame a post membership political and trading framework.
We are paying good money for this two year negotiating period ( That's the whole point of the two year delay in leaving in case you have forgotten) and we are paying to be treated fairly and respectfully and not to suffer the bitter, angry ego deflated rantings of a bunch of unelected European Fascistocrats.

The EU need to rise above their anger, embarrassment and disappointment at losing us as a member and create a post Brexit relationship that works for both parties as both parties have much to gain and much to lose..

How you can support the EU stance is baffling and does you little credit!
Hi

We are paying for Transition for one reason and one reason only, we are not ready to leave, that is entirely our fault,nothing to do with the EU.

The EU are under absolutely no obligation to give us a Trade
Deal which works for the UK,they are simply looking after their own interests,which is what everyone does.

This is the real world we voted to join.

I understand it because I would do the same, it is the nature of things.
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JBR
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26-02-2018, 12:51 AM
20

Re: Conservatives historically selfdestruct over Europe

Originally Posted by Moscow ->
The UK is a current EU member that is leaving at the behest of it's electorate and is seeking to frame a post membership political and trading framework.
We are paying good money for this two year negotiating period ( That's the whole point of the two year delay in leaving in case you have forgotten) and we are paying to be treated fairly and respectfully and not to suffer the bitter, angry ego deflated rantings of a bunch of unelected European Fascistocrats.

The EU need to rise above their anger, embarrassment and disappointment at losing us as a member and create a post Brexit relationship that works for both parties as both parties have much to gain and much to lose..
I agree with you that the EU should act honourably in that we are paying for a two year negotiating period.

Unfortunately, I wouldn't trust them to do the honourable thing. The impression I get is that they are quietly preparing to do the dirty on us - after we have paid up, of course - because they want to discourage any other member country from following us out.

I wouldn't trust them and inch, especially the perfidious Frogs.
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