17-05-2020, 04:39 PM
51
Re: More Brexit Doom and Gloom
Originally Posted by Bread
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He's right Solasch. If you look at it from a political perspective its the same thing. The army is a result of that defence policy, the policy coming first then then the army itself.Its what's happening now in the EU.
17-05-2020, 04:52 PM
52
Re: More Brexit Doom and Gloom
I look forward to seeing how this EU Army thing develops.One thing which might be particularly telling is to whom each country's armed forces swear allegiance.
Ours, of course, swear allegiance to the Queen.
I assume that each European armed forces swear allegiance to their own head of state, be it a monarch or the head of their government. Of course, I may be wrong there and stand to be corrected.
If I were still living in the EU, I think the time when I'd begin to worry a little would be when I hear that European armed forces are ordered to swear allegiance to the European Commission!
17-05-2020, 04:58 PM
53
Re: More Brexit Doom and Gloom
Originally Posted by Solasch
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Only if the policy is to have a common army, and it doesn't state that, so it isn't.
So according to you, the common defence policy does not have anything to do with military ???? How can you have a common defence policy without having a common military and a central command ?
Like I said, policy comes first then the army. The common defence policy is even in the Lisbon Treaty - it was planned way back then. You might want to see what PESCO does and its ~34 missions it has done under EU command.
Nick Clegg used to share your view and look what happened to him when Farage put him right. Talk about "egg on chin".
17-05-2020, 10:53 PM
54
Re: More Brexit Doom and Gloom
Originally Posted by Bread
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So according to you, the common defence policy does not have anything to do with military ???? How can you have a common defence policy without having a common military and a central command ?Like I said, policy comes first then the army. The common defence policy is even in the Lisbon Treaty - it was planned way back then. You might want to see what PESCO does and its ~34 missions it has done under EU command.
Nick Clegg used to share your view and look what happened to him when Farage put him right. Talk about "egg on chin".
If your defence policy is one of neutrality, a choice for having no army is logical one. So a defence policy can be about NOT having any military.
If you're an island it could make sense if your defence policy is to have a strong marine, and to have no army.
A policy is in fact a document that has been codified by the parliament.
17-05-2020, 11:15 PM
55
Re: More Brexit Doom and Gloom
Originally Posted by JBR
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I look forward to seeing how this EU Army thing develops.One thing which might be particularly telling is to whom each country's armed forces swear allegiance.
Ours, of course, swear allegiance to the Queen.
I assume that each European armed forces swear allegiance to their own head of state, be it a monarch or the head of their government. Of course, I may be wrong there and stand to be corrected.
If I were still living in the EU, I think the time when I'd begin to worry a little would be when I hear that European armed forces are ordered to swear allegiance to the European Commission!
A typical example of an oath of allegiance is that sworn by members of parliament in the netherlands:
I swear (affirm) allegiance to the King, to the Charter for the Kingdom of the Netherlands, and to the Constitution. I swear (affirm) that I will faithfully perform the duties my office lays upon me. So help me God almighty! (This I declare and affirm)
In case no monarch is provided, allegiance is sworn to country and people, like the germans do: "I pledge to faithfully serve the German Federal Republic and to defend the law and the freedom of the German people bravely."
In many commonwealth realms all that is required is an oath to the monarch, and not the constitution or state. There have been moves in some of the realms to make the oath of citizenship sworn by new citizens refer to the country rather than the monarch.
The European Court of Human Rights ruled in 1999 that the oath of allegiance to a reigning monarch is "reasonably viewed as an affirmation of loyalty to the constitutional principles which support... the workings of representative democracy in the respondent State."
As you see it doesn't exclude the possibility of any army swearing allegiance to: "I pledge to faithfully serve the European Federal Republic and to defend the law and the freedom of the european people bravely."
17-05-2020, 11:26 PM
56
Re: More Brexit Doom and Gloom
Originally Posted by Solasch
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A typical example of an oath of allegiance is that sworn by members of parliament in the netherlands:I swear (affirm) allegiance to the King, to the Charter for the Kingdom of the Netherlands, and to the Constitution. I swear (affirm) that I will faithfully perform the duties my office lays upon me. So help me God almighty! (This I declare and affirm)
In case no monarch is provided, allegiance is sworn to country and people, like the germans do: "I pledge to faithfully serve the German Federal Republic and to defend the law and the freedom of the German people bravely."
In many commonwealth realms all that is required is an oath to the monarch, and not the constitution or state. There have been moves in some of the realms to make the oath of citizenship sworn by new citizens refer to the country rather than the monarch.
The European Court of Human Rights ruled in 1999 that the oath of allegiance to a reigning monarch is "reasonably viewed as an affirmation of loyalty to the constitutional principles which support... the workings of representative democracy in the respondent State."
As you see it doesn't exclude the possibility of any army swearing allegiance to: "I pledge to faithfully serve the European Federal Republic and to defend the law and the freedom of the european people bravely."
Anyway, I dunno why you posted all that. Its a bit weird really.
Oath of allegiance ???
What the hell ?
18-05-2020, 02:07 PM
57
Re: More Brexit Doom and Gloom
Originally Posted by Bread
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The EU hasn't signed up to the ECHR .... just saying likeAnyway, I dunno why you posted all that. Its a bit weird really.
Oath of allegiance ???
What the hell ?
18-05-2020, 03:20 PM
58
Re: More Brexit Doom and Gloom
Originally Posted by Solasch
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Well that is easy to find out. Just look at the quoted post which my post is a reply to. Can you understand then?
It makes no sense, it's all gobbledygook - what does it mean ?
18-05-2020, 03:27 PM
60
Re: More Brexit Doom and Gloom
Originally Posted by Solasch
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Better stick to the level of chap and dude. No need to overheat your brain.
Don't tell me your admitting that you don't even know what your posting
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