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09-05-2021, 11:46 AM
111

Re: Is it war??

Originally Posted by JBR ->
That's all well and good, except that they - like the Falklands - rely on the UK for their defence.

I think the Frogs have now realised that and will think again before starting a war, because they know that we would win it!
It's unlikely to come to that and I don't know where DM gets his ideas but his post is at best questionable in its surmise.


Here's a few snippets from today's take in The Times:

"The protest was a powerful piece of maritime theatre that allowed the fishermen to vent their fury in spectacular fashion.
The French and British governments played their part in heightening the drama."

"Underlying the sound and fury, however, are serious concerns on both sides. The fishing industry, although a minnow compared with other sectors of the British and French economies, was the subject of some of the toughest negotiations for the post-Brexit Trade and Co-operation Agreement (TCA) concluded on Christmas Eve by the UK and the European Union."

"For Jersey, the rules are simply a matter of asserting control over their waters in a post-Brexit world. Ian Gorst, the external relations minister, has insisted the island had acted in accordance with the TCA, which gives Jersey the sole right to issue licences to use its territorial waters for commercial purposes. "

"The result is a serious threat to the livelihood of the 250 or so French boats that have fished in the waters around the islands, supporting about 900 families and a further 2,000 jobs on shore."

"What happens next is unclear. Despite the shows of strength on both sides, Delahaye does not expect an all-out war but more negotiations involving the EU as well as Britain, France and Jersey. The island could come under pressure from the British government, which is responsible for the island’s foreign relations, to make concessions.

Further raising tensions, Jersey fishermen, who have long landed most of their shellfish in Normandy, have been told they can no longer do so until further notice. Gorst said he thought the ban was not compliant with the TCA and has vowed to complain to the European Commission."


So there we have the current state of play, warts & all.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/j...elks-rhp2zwv0v

Yes it's from The Times which is subscription-only, but there is a free trial period available.
Otherwise you can either rely upon the excerpts I have posted to give you the idea or search for alternatives reports yourselves.
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09-05-2021, 12:22 PM
112

Re: Is it war??

Originally Posted by Zaphod ->
Further raising tensions, Jersey fishermen, who have long landed most of their shellfish in Normandy, have been told they can no longer do so until further notice. Gorst said he thought the ban was not compliant with the TCA and has vowed to complain to the European Commission."
If donkeyman is right in his post # 109, jersey never was in the EU, then they were third country and nothing has changed for them. They can continue to land shellfish. If not that landing of their catch is gone, not to return, due to old EU rules now applicable for jersey too.
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09-05-2021, 01:20 PM
113

Re: Is it war??

Originally Posted by Solasch ->
If donkeyman is right in his post # 109, jersey never was in the EU, then they were third country and nothing has changed for them. They can continue to land shellfish. If not that landing of their catch is gone, not to return, due to old EU rules now applicable for jersey too.
Oh an unexpected ally ??
They STILLare a third country, as l said previously! and as such they
can make or break any treaties they think necessary for THEIR
territories ? UK has no say in what they do at all , the only relationship
we have is that they chose us as protectors of their territory against
any aggressors etc, but chose to stay self governing!!
All this is easily verified from history and the recent conflab between
the French and Jersey fishermen in Jersey recently ??
Once again Zaphod insists on quoting other people's opinions
instead of telling us what he himse!fnthinks??
At the moment l think the French and Jersey fishers have retired
to consider amendments to their existing treaty to see if it can be
altered to accommodate the extra fishermen now requiring
licences over and above the original licence holders and whether
the waters can support that many ?
Neither the EU or UK should have any input in these talks as the
still existing treaty did not involve them at all, despite the the EUs
CFA !
The talks are between France and Jersey, UK can only interfere
if France threatens or attacks jersey and Jersey requests aid !!
My remarks on Scotland are only conjecture but given the present
situation between UK and Scot land must surely be valid !! IMO?

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09-05-2021, 01:38 PM
114

Re: Is it war??

Originally Posted by Donkeyman ->
The talks are between France and Jersey, UK can only interfere
if France threatens or attacks jersey and Jersey requests aid !!
My remarks on Scotland are only conjecture but given the present
situation between UK and Scot land must surely be valid !! IMO?

Donkeyman! 👍🤗🤗👍
I think fishermen from jersey and france are in fact companions, facing the same problem.

Following a day of high drama on Thursday when 60 French boats blockaded St Helier harbour, the fishermen allege that off the north coast of France a Jersey fisherman was harassed by French dockworkers. Michael Michieli, who runs a trawler out of St Helier, told journalists one of his colleagues had been unceremoniously dismissed from port by a hostile group.
The veteran fisherman said: “Jason tried yesterday and he was met by a load of bullies on top of the quay. “He’d done all his paperwork. He had permission to land and at the bottom of the ladder he’s looking up and there’s this mob.”
“The real hardship genuinely is on this side and I’m seeing my colleagues going out of business, fishermen that have done nothing else all their life, made a commitment to the industry since they were very young, having to sell their boats and walk away from the industry,” he said.


“They want to take our fishing but what does fishing mean to them?” asked Baptiste Guenon, 34, the skipper of Cap Lyhan, which was one of 100 Norman and Breton boats that protested inside and outside St Helier harbour last Thursday. “It means 5% of their economy. What they really live from is banks and tax avoidance. So why take our fish?

“It makes no sense. It wasn’t just French boats protesting on Thursday. Ten of the boats with us were from Jersey. They’re also disgusted with what their government is doing. If the Jersey boats can’t sell their fish in France, they can’t work.”
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09-05-2021, 01:54 PM
115

Re: Is it war??

Rather than supposition here is the official interpretation direct from the government of Jersey:

https://www.gov.je/Government/Depart...ipeuanduk.aspx

"Jersey's relationship with the European Union

Prior to the UK’s departure from the European Union (EU), Jersey’s relationship with the EU was set out in Protocol 3 of the UK's 1972 Accession Treaty. In practice, this means the Island was treated as part of the European Union for the purposes of free trade in goods, but otherwise was not a part of the EU.

Following the UK referendum on EU membership, one of our key objectives was to protect, as far as possible, the Island’s key interests – including our relationship with our European partners.

Jersey’s relationship is now enshrined in our membership of the UK-EU Trade and Cooperation Agreement (TCA), which was reached prior to the end of the Transition Period on 31 December 2020. This means that Jersey goods bound for the EU are treated as they would if they come from the UK.

In addition to the practical implications of the UK’s exit, Jersey has maintained long-standing relationships – politically, economically and culturally – with our closest French neighbours and partners across the EU.

The Channel Islands Brussels Office (CIBO) makes sure that Jersey’s interests are promoted in Europe, and acts as the central engagement point with Brussels and within other multilateral fora.
"
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09-05-2021, 02:06 PM
116

Re: Is it war??

Originally Posted by Solasch ->
I think fishermen from jersey and france are in fact companions, facing the same problem.

Following a day of high drama on Thursday when 60 French boats blockaded St Helier harbour, the fishermen allege that off the north coast of France a Jersey fisherman was harassed by French dockworkers. Michael Michieli, who runs a trawler out of St Helier, told journalists one of his colleagues had been unceremoniously dismissed from port by a hostile group.
The veteran fisherman said: “Jason tried yesterday and he was met by a load of bullies on top of the quay. “He’d done all his paperwork. He had permission to land and at the bottom of the ladder he’s looking up and there’s this mob.”
“The real hardship genuinely is on this side and I’m seeing my colleagues going out of business, fishermen that have done nothing else all their life, made a commitment to the industry since they were very young, having to sell their boats and walk away from the industry,” he said.


“They want to take our fishing but what does fishing mean to them?” asked Baptiste Guenon, 34, the skipper of Cap Lyhan, which was one of 100 Norman and Breton boats that protested inside and outside St Helier harbour last Thursday. “It means 5% of their economy. What they really live from is banks and tax avoidance. So why take our fish?

“It makes no sense. It wasn’t just French boats protesting on Thursday. Ten of the boats with us were from Jersey. They’re also disgusted with what their government is doing. If the Jersey boats can’t sell their fish in France, they can’t work.”
That begs the question where are the fish that used to swim in their
home waters Solly ??
On the map it looks far larger than Jersey's bit ??
Could it be that fishing has become more popular in France for some
reason ??
They have an existing treaty with jersey, why not stick to it ??
Seems to me we have too many fishermen??
Perhaps they need culling before they destroy what they depend on ?

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09-05-2021, 02:09 PM
117

Re: Is it war??

Originally Posted by Zaphod ->
Rather than supposition here is the official interpretation direct from the government of Jersey:

https://www.gov.je/Government/Depart...ipeuanduk.aspx

"Jersey's relationship with the European Union

Prior to the UK’s departure from the European Union (EU), Jersey’s relationship with the EU was set out in Protocol 3 of the UK's 1972 Accession Treaty. In practice, this means the Island was treated as part of the European Union for the purposes of free trade in goods, but otherwise was not a part of the EU.

Following the UK referendum on EU membership, one of our key objectives was to protect, as far as possible, the Island’s key interests – including our relationship with our European partners.

Jersey’s relationship is now enshrined in our membership of the UK-EU Trade and Cooperation Agreement (TCA), which was reached prior to the end of the Transition Period on 31 December 2020. This means that Jersey goods bound for the EU are treated as they would if they come from the UK.

In addition to the practical implications of the UK’s exit, Jersey has maintained long-standing relationships – politically, economically and culturally – with our closest French neighbours and partners across the EU.

The Channel Islands Brussels Office (CIBO) makes sure that Jersey’s interests are promoted in Europe, and acts as the central engagement point with Brussels and within other multilateral fora.
"

So with zero reference to the terms of above agreements, they have issued licenses to French boats that have fished these waters for generations, but subject to petty and infantile restrictions, including limiting permitted fishing to mere hours per year. Other license applications are pending.

All the other Channel Islands, which value close trade and social ties with France, have settled these matters, quite amicably, months ago.

Go figure.
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09-05-2021, 02:12 PM
118

Re: Is it war??

Originally Posted by Solasch ->
So with zero reference to the terms of above agreements, they have issued licenses to French boats that have fished these waters for generations, but subject to petty and infantile restrictions, including limiting permitted fishing to mere hours per year. Other license applications are pending.

All the other Channel Islands, which value close trade and social ties with France, have settled these matters, quite amicably, months ago.

Go figure.
You have to look for the agreements, not simply assume that they aren't there.


Here you go:
https://www.gov.je/Industry/FarmingF...ges/index.aspx

Oh look!
"From 1st January 2021" it says.
So also settled quite amicably some months ago then.
Until it doesn't suit the French all of a sudden, it seems.
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09-05-2021, 02:22 PM
119

Re: Is it war??

Originally Posted by Zaphod ->
Rather than supposition here is the official interpretation direct from the government of Jersey:

https://www.gov.je/Government/Depart...ipeuanduk.aspx

"Jersey's relationship with the European Union

Prior to the UK’s departure from the European Union (EU), Jersey’s relationship with the EU was set out in Protocol 3 of the UK's 1972 Accession Treaty. In practice, this means the Island was treated as part of the European Union for the purposes of free trade in goods, but otherwise was not a part of the EU.

Following the UK referendum on EU membership, one of our key objectives was to protect, as far as possible, the Island’s key interests – including our relationship with our European partners.

Jersey’s relationship is now enshrined in our membership of the UK-EU Trade and Cooperation Agreement (TCA), which was reached prior to the end of the Transition Period on 31 December 2020. This means that Jersey goods bound for the EU are treated as they would if they come from the UK.

In addition to the practical implications of the UK’s exit, Jersey has maintained long-standing relationships – politically, economically and culturally – with our closest French neighbours and partners across the EU.

The Channel Islands Brussels Office (CIBO) makes sure that Jersey’s interests are promoted in Europe, and acts as the central engagement point with Brussels and within other multilateral fora.
"
So l was correct in saying that jersey was autonomous untill this year?
When it seems they made the mistake of putting their affairs in the
hands of UK /EU negotiators? This, after brexit was proclaimed as
over!! and many people believed that !!
I can't see why they did this, it has no apparent benefit to them ??
Anyway, thanks for the Official info Zaphod it certainly clears things
up and confirms my my earlier post !l

Donkeyman! 👍🤔🤔👍
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09-05-2021, 02:28 PM
120

Re: Is it war??

Originally Posted by Donkeyman ->
So l was correct in saying that jersey was autonomous untill this year?
No.
No you were not.
Please read it all again.
I ask because until you really understand the relationship between the UK, the EU and Jersey you will continue to make false assumptions.
 
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