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The Artful Todger
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10-10-2019, 11:10 AM
21

Re: Democratic Britain? Oh come on!

Originally Posted by Bread ->
And boundary changes ?
One version of PR would not involve Parliamentary boundaries but electoral colleges for each party.
Donkeyman
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10-10-2019, 11:44 AM
22

Re: Democratic Britain? Oh come on!

Originally Posted by Donkeyman ->
Prhaps in the uk people should be asked what they DONT want
not what they DO when voting?
Regards Donkeyman!
Seems to be working in our POSHOC at the moment Floydy
dont you think?

Regards Donkeyman!
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10-10-2019, 11:54 AM
23

Re: Democratic Britain? Oh come on!

Originally Posted by Devo ->
Unlimited democracy is a dreadful way to choose a government. By definition, roughly half the electorate have a below average IQ. Which must mean a good chunk of the electorate haven't the faintest idea what they are voting for.
In this country where we have a weird separation of press news and opinion and broadcast news and opinion, we have the vast majority of the press acting as Tory propaganda sheets and TV & radio can do nothing about it. So, not only do a large number not know what they are voting for, even more do not realise they are not exercising a free vote but doing what subtle psychological techniques are telling them to do - hence the brexit referendum result and numerous myths about the main parties.
As has been said, the FPTP voting system is a travesty as seen in the last but one election when UKIP acquired 20% of the vote (or thereabouts) but no seats. Obviously a good thing but equally obviously unjust.
Then there is the indirect effect for the monarchy, the keystone of the establishment and the source of the epic forelock tugging infection that taints so many end ensures perceived (only, never genuinely) elders and betters are treated with deference and dumb acceptance.
This benighted country needs revolution!

I think you probably, in common with many others, confuse IQ
with education and both with common sense Devo??

Regards Donkeyman!
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10-10-2019, 12:05 PM
24

Re: Democratic Britain? Oh come on!

Originally Posted by The Artful Todger ->
'K, let's start with our voting system.

First Past The Post. If there was a choice of two candidates or parties it works fine but the moment a third candidate enters the field it starts to go wrong and if party #3 attracts enough percentage of the vote that it reduces a clear choice between #1 and #2 - then that is when the wheels come off.

Now let's look at one particular election, 1997 when Bliar first formed a government.

The numbers are interesting. Labour won only 43% of the vote, in other words 57% didn't want Labour in office.

With only 43% of the electorate choosing Labour one might think that Labour would have 43% of the Parliamentary seats. Wrong.

Instead Labour won 62% of the seats. That because of the First Past The Post system. And the spread of candidates in constituencies which split the votes.

As a result of the huge Parliamentary majority that Labour government was free to do what they wanted - and my life, did they ever.

That illustrates a part of why our electoral system is not fit for purpose.

More rants on this next and the effects of 'Marginal Seats' on results of election results that mean that the results of elections are far from being democratic.
You have laid it all out nice and clearly Todgy, and it would seem
that major changes are made not only to the electoral system
either? But we have to start somewhere, and that would be probably
the best place to start?
UK needs to be made fit for purpose!

Donkeyman!
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10-10-2019, 12:49 PM
25

Re: Democratic Britain? Oh come on!

Originally Posted by Donkeyman ->
You have laid it all out nice and clearly Todgy, and it would seem
that major changes are made not only to the electoral system
either? But we have to start somewhere, and that would be probably
the best place to start?
UK needs to be made fit for purpose!

Donkeyman!
There's an old (allegedly) Yiddish proverb that a journey of a thousand miles starts with a single missed period.

In the case of changes I guess the most pressing change would best be within Parliment with the role of Mr Speaker strictly defined and limited.

Then rules on Crossing The Floor, and then how major changes to a published manifesto should be dealt with.

Then the electoral system, first past the post definitely out, some form of PR definitely in.

The only two problems are the turkeys voting for Christmas problem and secondly what form of PR should be introduced but any form would be better than what we have at present.

Then there are a plethora of things that IMO should be addressed, the most obvious being the introduction of a written constitution but that will prove to be the most controversial.
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10-10-2019, 03:24 PM
26

Re: Democratic Britain? Oh come on!

What about the concept of counting all of the votes cast across the country and then issuing seats in parliament in proportion? The demographics of which MP is available for a given area/number of voters can happen afterwards. By doing this, there would be no "safe" seats, and no need for any form of strategic voting. Given that MP's don't seem to take much notice of their current constituents once they get in, where they end up wouldn't really be a problem.
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10-10-2019, 04:22 PM
27

Re: Democratic Britain? Oh come on!

Originally Posted by Dextrous63 ->
What about the concept of counting all of the votes cast across the country and then issuing seats in parliament in proportion? The demographics of which MP is available for a given area/number of voters can happen afterwards. By doing this, there would be no "safe" seats, and no need for any form of strategic voting. Given that MP's don't seem to take much notice of their current constituents once they get in, where they end up wouldn't really be a problem.
In my opinion that is the best form of PR.

It would involve Electoral Colleges that would decide who went into the pot from which MP's would be selected by their party and it works very well in other countries. Another advantage is that if an MP went rogue his party leader could replace him or her.
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10-10-2019, 09:33 PM
28

Re: Democratic Britain? Oh come on!

I would say that it's one thing having control over national decisions, where they basically will never please everyone because there are too many conflicting priorities. But people should have more input and control over local decisions. In other countries people have a lot more say on what happens in their home town. Here local authorities seem to have all the power. That's just wrong. There's a lot of corruption too with local councillors etc. So people just end up feeling alienated by society.
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11-10-2019, 02:01 PM
29

Re: Democratic Britain? Oh come on!

Dont laugh! Lets have a referendum on whether to change our
electoral system, the referendum to be compulsory and the
question as just stated?
Then take it from there! Let the ideas come in and hash it out from
the input?
Nothing to lose for the majority l think??

Regards Donkeyman!
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11-10-2019, 02:04 PM
30

Re: Democratic Britain? Oh come on!

The referendum is a good idea but it should be a choice of options for change without an option to keep the status quo.
 
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