22-03-2019, 12:21 PM
311
Re: Churchill NZ under lockdown!
Originally Posted by Julie1962
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While true I find Muslims real peaceful Muslims don't see the extremists as Muslims so it's painful to see them all blamed for what the evil people are doing. We should have had a better definitive word for them and not used the same word for both people I think that might have avoided a lot of the problems we've had. One thing I find interesting about British terrorists is they are usually completely failed as Muslims at some point, druggies/drunks or into prostitution or violent thugs, who decide they need to make a point and become very religious often following an odd mixture that encompasses the koran as a do to list and their own brand of violence to go with it. Sadly they are very dangerous people even before they decide to find a religion to pin their hopes on.
When you look at them they are just as they always have been with a religiously zealous streak that is scary.
Normal people who follow their religion quietly who try to be good people just want to be left alone to worship as they wish don't have that violent bent or need to prove themselves.
22-03-2019, 01:03 PM
312
Re: Churchill NZ under lockdown!
Originally Posted by Julie1962
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While true I find Muslims real peaceful Muslims don't see the extremists as Muslims so it's painful to see them all blamed for what the evil people are doing. We should have had a better definitive word for them and not used the same word for both people I think that might have avoided a lot of the problems we've had. One thing I find interesting about British terrorists is they are usually completely failed as Muslims at some point, druggies/drunks or into prostitution or violent thugs, who decide they need to make a point and become very religious often following an odd mixture that encompasses the koran as a do to list and their own brand of violence to go with it. Sadly they are very dangerous people even before they decide to find a religion to pin their hopes on.
When you look at them they are just as they always have been with a religiously zealous streak that is scary.
Normal people who follow their religion quietly who try to be good people just want to be left alone to worship as they wish don't have that violent bent or need to prove themselves.
That's very true Julie, but the trouble is that the normal people do not separate themselves from extremists and some have been found to be susceptible to radicalisation.
So unless the faith develops some kind of central authority that rejects radical views the whole will end up tarred by the few. But as we've discussed before that's not likely to happen.
I suppose one way to separate themselves would be for women and men to dress without a veil or tunic. Because that creates an immediate divide in social identity. If Imams were to teach that it is not necessary to demonstrate faith in these clothing choices then that would help.
22-03-2019, 01:17 PM
313
Re: Churchill NZ under lockdown!
Originally Posted by AnnieS
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That's very true Julie, but the trouble is that the normal people do not separate themselves from extremists and some have been found to be susceptible to radicalisation. So unless the faith develops some kind of central authority that rejects radical views the whole will end up tarred by the few. But as we've discussed before that's not likely to happen.
I suppose one way to separate themselves would be for women and men to dress without a veil or tunic. Because that creates an immediate divide in social identity. If Imams were to teach that it is not necessary to demonstrate faith in these clothing choices then that would help.
22-03-2019, 01:18 PM
314
Re: Churchill NZ under lockdown!
Originally Posted by The Artful Todger
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With due respect you. REALLY should get out more.
22-03-2019, 02:13 PM
315
Re: Churchill NZ under lockdown!
Originally Posted by Julie1962
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I agree but I am not sure about clothing as some of the worst terrorist attacks have been done by people wearing western style clothing. It's not as simple as Muslim dress equals terrorist they like to blend in.
People here have seen images in the media of the taliban, Isis dressed in a certain way. When they see people here dressed in the same way they are reminded of terrorism. The simplest way for ordinary Muslims to disassociate from that image is to wear western clothing. This would not solve the problem of terrorism but it would greatly help reduce discrimination of ordinary Muslims. It would need to be supported by Imams.
As I understand it these are cultural norms rather than religious requirements. But you don't have to wear a crucifix to prove you are a Christian and there is no religious requirement to wear traditional clothing to prove you are a devout Muslim.
22-03-2019, 02:25 PM
316
Re: Churchill NZ under lockdown!
Originally Posted by AnnieS
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The simplest way for ordinary Muslims to disassociate from that image is to wear western clothing. This would not solve the problem of terrorism but it would greatly help reduce discrimination of ordinary Muslims. It would need to be supported by Imams. As I understand it these are cultural norms rather than religious requirements. But you don't have to wear a crucifix to prove you are a Christian and there is no religious requirement to wear traditional clothing to prove you are a devout Muslim.
Absolutely with you Annie
22-03-2019, 02:27 PM
317
Re: Churchill NZ under lockdown!
Originally Posted by AnnieS
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Yes terrorists do usually wear western clothing, but I was talking about discrimination against ordinary people. People here have seen images in the media of the taliban, Isis dressed in a certain way. When they see people here dressed in the same way they are reminded of terrorism. The simplest way for ordinary Muslims to disassociate from that image is to wear western clothing. This would not solve the problem of terrorism but it would greatly help reduce discrimination of ordinary Muslims. It would need to be supported by Imams.
As I understand it these are cultural norms rather than religious requirements. But you don't have to wear a crucifix to prove you are a Christian and there is no religious requirement to wear traditional clothing to prove you are a devout Muslim.
22-03-2019, 02:35 PM
318
Re: Churchill NZ under lockdown!
Originally Posted by Julie1962
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Not much respect in that comment it's like people who say I'm not a racists but .... If you got out more and talked to people you might learn a bit about the real people behind these things.
My hard Atheism was a thing that none of the people that I encountered that was on the one hand a total mystery and on the other highly offensive. Goodness knows what the response might have been had they known that I was a secular Jew!
As I've mentioned previously before going up to university I was advised to take on some sort of - well something to counter the intense study involved with my choice of what I would read.
I chose to revisit Judaism from an academic perspective, same with Christianity, and also Islam.
For in excess of fifty years I've continued this in part as a form of mental relaxation, in part out of interest, and in part to discover what the history of these three belief systems was.
When it comes to Reuben or Christopher or Abdul while there are cultural differences otherwise if you ask to have the salt passed then you'll get the salt passed to you.
But when it comes to values, ambitions, morality, and ideas of things right and wrong based on the belief system they follow, that's a very different matter though the border between Reuben and Christopher is exceedingly blurred.
Islam however is another matter.
22-03-2019, 02:41 PM
319
Re: Churchill NZ under lockdown!
Originally Posted by Julie1962
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Yes all true of course. I just find it a bit off to stop people wearing what they want in what is a fairly tolerant country. Will we lose more than we gain by doing that ?
It is akin to wearing the uniform of the schutzstaffel in the mid 30's England.
22-03-2019, 02:48 PM
320
Re: Churchill NZ under lockdown!
Originally Posted by The Artful Todger
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Knowing the increasing distaste that is arrising from Joe Public for Islam schlepping around in any form of dress that is plainly associated with being a Muslim let alone like an animated black pillar box is like a slap in the face.It is akin to wearing the uniform of the schutzstaffel in the mid 30's England.
Yes, I'm sure you know all about that uniform !!!
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