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The Artful Todger
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22-09-2020, 10:26 AM
181

Re: A REAL Reason to Avoid a Smart Meter

Originally Posted by OldGreyFox ->
I was wondering about that Todger, I believe modifications have to be made to the average household supply in order to manage the high amperage requirements when charging an electric vehicle. If we all decided to go electric I'm sure the grid would collapse.

It would seem that any advantage we may have benefited from by reducing our energy needs with Wind Turbines, solar panels, and energy saving lightbulbs will be lost when the brown stuff hits the fan.....Oh! wait a minute, there won't be enough power to supply the fan...
It gets fun with households having multiple cars.
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22-09-2020, 12:25 PM
182

Re: A REAL Reason to Avoid a Smart Meter

Originally Posted by OldGreyFox ->
I was wondering about that Todger, I believe modifications have to be made to the average household supply in order to manage the high amperage requirements when charging an electric vehicle. If we all decided to go electric I'm sure the grid would collapse.
:
I doubt it the grid will collapse, it has to supply an enormous surge in demand when the nation turns on its stoves to cook the evening meal. Unfortunately most of that capacity lies idle for the rest of the day and even more so at night.

This was the reason for smart meters in the first place - to allow variable pricing to "encourage" consumers to use power when it is plentiful by charging more for peak demand.



In this graph of UK household daily demand you can see that the peak demand is nearly twice that of the rest of the daytime hours and four times that of the night time usage. The generators have to have sufficient capacity to cover the peak but half of it is idle for the majority of the day. it is very expensive plant to have sitting around either shut down or running at low load.

I would think that most electric car users will charge their vehicle overnight so the generation companies will be delighted that they can run their generators at night rather than having to shut them down or use them to pump water uphill.

A home 32amp charger will fully charge up an EV overnight. I read somewhere such a charger will add approximately 40km of range per hour of charging.
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22-09-2020, 08:12 PM
183

Re: A REAL Reason to Avoid a Smart Meter

Thanks for that Bruce, but if people bung their electric vehicles on charge when they arrive home from work it will coincide with maximum power usage. It's the 'Encourage' bit that worries me....
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22-09-2020, 08:27 PM
184

Re: A REAL Reason to Avoid a Smart Meter

It's interesting that since Q1 '98 to now only in ONE quarter did we not need to import electricity from the French nuclear cluster on the French West coast. Moreover a further thing to be dealt with is the need to route power across the National grid because of changing consumption in regions over each day and the amount of power being generated in each zone at any particular time. Added to that is the actual amount of power that can be loaded on each section. Usage of electricity in industry is also a huge matter to be managed especially since some very heavy users exist and managing reliable supplies to them is very important that must match agreed timing of load.

So there's a very great deal of investment that must take place in the UK generation and distribution infrastructure, next generation consumer smart meters will become important and where a load pattern to match the increased number of electric vehicles it's gonna be fun sorting it out! Especially making up for the already insufficient generation capacity if the French turn off the interconnector or hike the price either of which or even both is quite probable.

Summary - it's a hell of a lot more complex than just plotting the domestic consumption especially when it is a-typical now for how households live.
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22-09-2020, 08:34 PM
185

Re: A REAL Reason to Avoid a Smart Meter

Originally Posted by The Artful Todger ->
It's interesting that since Q1 '98 to now only in ONE quarter did we not need to import electricity from the French nuclear cluster on the French West coast. Moreover a further thing to be dealt with is the need to route power across the National grid because of changing consumption in regions over each day and the amount of power being generated in each zone at any particular time. Added to that is the actual amount of power that can be loaded on each section. Usage of electricity in industry is also a huge matter to be managed especially since some very heavy users exist and managing reliable supplies to them is very important that must match agreed timing of load.

So there's a very great deal of investment that must take place in the UK generation and distribution infrastructure, next generation consumer smart meters will become important and where a load pattern to match the increased number of electric vehicles it's gonna be fun sorting it out! Especially making up for the already insufficient generation capacity if the French turn off the interconnector or hike the price either of which or even both is quite probable.

Summary - it's a hell of a lot more complex than just plotting the domestic consumption especially when it is a-typical now for how households live.
Shutting down two major coal burning stations locally, before establishing alternative supplies was not a good idea.....
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22-09-2020, 09:19 PM
186

Re: A REAL Reason to Avoid a Smart Meter

Originally Posted by The Artful Todger ->
It's interesting that since Q1 '98 to now only in ONE quarter did we not need to import electricity from the French nuclear cluster on the French West coast. Moreover a further thing to be dealt with is the need to route power across the National grid because of changing consumption in regions over each day and the amount of power being generated in each zone at any particular time. Added to that is the actual amount of power that can be loaded on each section. Usage of electricity in industry is also a huge matter to be managed especially since some very heavy users exist and managing reliable supplies to them is very important that must match agreed timing of load.

So there's a very great deal of investment that must take place in the UK generation and distribution infrastructure, next generation consumer smart meters will become important and where a load pattern to match the increased number of electric vehicles it's gonna be fun sorting it out! Especially making up for the already insufficient generation capacity if the French turn off the interconnector or hike the price either of which or even both is quite probable.

Summary - it's a hell of a lot more complex than just plotting the domestic consumption especially when it is a-typical now for how households live.
You're making a heck of a lot of assumptions in your predictions.
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22-09-2020, 09:22 PM
187

Re: A REAL Reason to Avoid a Smart Meter

Originally Posted by Bruce ->
I doubt it the grid will collapse, it has to supply an enormous surge in demand when the nation turns on its stoves to cook the evening meal. Unfortunately most of that capacity lies idle for the rest of the day and even more so at night.

This was the reason for smart meters in the first place - to allow variable pricing to "encourage" consumers to use power when it is plentiful by charging more for peak demand.



In this graph of UK household daily demand you can see that the peak demand is nearly twice that of the rest of the daytime hours and four times that of the night time usage. The generators have to have sufficient capacity to cover the peak but half of it is idle for the majority of the day. it is very expensive plant to have sitting around either shut down or running at low load.

I would think that most electric car users will charge their vehicle overnight so the generation companies will be delighted that they can run their generators at night rather than having to shut them down or use them to pump water uphill.

A home 32amp charger will fully charge up an EV overnight. I read somewhere such a charger will add approximately 40km of range per hour of charging.
Realise you've posted a link somewhere there Bruce but could you confirm to which period the graph relates? I'm asking because I reckon Covid has changed that graph substantially and we may never go back to that particular shape. Just my prediction.
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22-09-2020, 09:53 PM
188

Re: A REAL Reason to Avoid a Smart Meter

Originally Posted by AnnieS ->
You're making a heck of a lot of assumptions in your predictions.
There's so many imponderables where future management of electricity generation and distribution is concerned that assumptions have to be taken and plugged in models. The trick then becomes being able to modify the plans as factors firm up. One HUGE elephant in the dining room is the population and its distribution because the number of illegals in the UK are anywhere between five million and fifteen million living goodness knows where. Then there's all the uncertainty as a result of the Kung Flu and what impact it will have on the economy.

I'm very relieved that I've got no part to play in that sort of thing any more!
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22-09-2020, 09:55 PM
189

Re: A REAL Reason to Avoid a Smart Meter

Originally Posted by AnnieS ->
Realise you've posted a link somewhere there Bruce but could you confirm to which period the graph relates? I'm asking because I reckon Covid has changed that graph substantially and we may never go back to that particular shape. Just my prediction.
I think you're right, also the assumption regarding domestic life in the UK these days.
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22-09-2020, 10:21 PM
190

Re: A REAL Reason to Avoid a Smart Meter

Originally Posted by OldGreyFox ->
Shutting down two major coal burning stations locally, before establishing alternative supplies was not a good idea.....
I believe they also decided to convert at least one to burning wood chippings imported from America.

I'm not sure how much more 'healthy' it is to burn wood rather than coal, especially since we have learnt how to burn coal very efficiently and without anything like the emissions we used to have.

It seems that this country is happier to follow the dictatorial words of the eco-warriors than prepare for realistic means of producing the electricity that we need now and in the future.
 
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