10-01-2021, 05:44 PM
31
Re: Is Brexit over ??
Originally Posted by JBR
->
You make some good points but, all in all, I still think we would have been better leaving without a deal.If we had walked away in the face of the EU's prevaricating and threatening, we would have sent a clear message that we are not going to be dictated to. I think that should have been made clear right at the outset of any discussions.
Having left completely with absolutely no ties or restrictions, we could later have proposed a trade agreement with the EU. If they had agreed, I think we'd have been in a stronger position than we are now; if they had refused, we'd have continued to trade with the world under WTO rules. Things might have been less easy initially but would, in my opinion, have been worth it. Bearing in mind that the EU countries export more to us than we do to them, I have a feeling that their businesses would have forced them to think again about a free trade deal.
The main thing is that we should have given away none of our rights. Treason May's WA could have been torn up, along with its problems which are presently holding us back and we could have saved £billions of her promised payments.
Anybody can dream of "what if's" but we are where we are and that is as a direct result of what actually happened.
The time for dreaming of what might have been is past.
Long past.
Considering what a sh1tshow he inherited Boris TBH did extremely well in persuading the EU that he would leave with no deal if it became necessary; full marks are truly deserved to him and Lord Frost for their success there.
I have to say that I don't think your "ties or restrictions" really exist.
It is true that some things have changed and/or will change, but none of our rights and freedoms are lost.
We are out of the EU.
What is more, there are clauses written in to the deal that we can still execute if we so desire that means we can resort purely to WTO terms.
Any thing - ANYTHING - that as a country we decide we do not like, WE can change.
That certainly isn't being tied or restricted.
It's time that both Brexiters and Remainers realise that now is the time to move on from what we have, and stop moaning about what might have been.
Let's start moving forwards and grasping opportunities as they arise rather than wasting time and energy bickering about things that aren't going to change.
Because I for one am thoroughly fed up of the division and ill-feeling evident not only with Brexit but for different reasons all around the world.
It is time to move on.
Zuludog's post above is right; it's time for acceptance of change - but also a time to be wary of any kind of backsliding.
10-01-2021, 06:50 PM
32
Re: Is Brexit over ??
Originally Posted by Zaphod
->
I have to say that I don't think your "ties or restrictions" really exist.It is true that some things have changed and/or will change, but none of our rights and freedoms are lost.
We are out of the EU.
What is more, there are clauses written in to the deal that we can still execute if we so desire that means we can resort purely to WTO terms.
Any thing - ANYTHING - that as a country we decide we do not like, WE can change.
That certainly isn't being tied or restricted.
We have chosen to impose some restrictions to our independence, for example the much discussed matter of our allowing EU countries to continue to pillage our waters with their supertankers.
We also seem to have turned a blind eye to the Frogs allowing (or probably encouraging) their unwanted illegal immigrants to come here, though I can't understand why.
Just two examples.
I should emphasise that these are things which we appear to have done of our own volition.
You are correct, of course, that we can leave the arrangements in Boris's deal if we want to. Personally, I think we should do so now, but if not I hope that will happen before too long when people realise that we have given too much and gained too little.
I suppose you could compare the deal we now have with the deal the Canadians have with the EU. Compare the 'ties and restrictions' there.
10-01-2021, 07:28 PM
33
Re: Is Brexit over ??
Originally Posted by JBR
->
I suppose it depends upon how you define 'ties and restrictions'.We have chosen to impose some restrictions to our independence, for example the much discussed matter of our allowing EU countries to continue to pillage our waters with their supertankers.
We also seem to have turned a blind eye to the Frogs allowing (or probably encouraging) their unwanted illegal immigrants to come here, though I can't understand why.
Just two examples.
I should emphasise that these are things which we appear to have done of our own volition.
You are correct, of course, that we can leave the arrangements in Boris's deal if we want to. Personally, I think we should do so now, but if not I hope that will happen before too long when people realise that we have given too much and gained too little.
I suppose you could compare the deal we now have with the deal the Canadians have with the EU. Compare the 'ties and restrictions' there.
We do not have RESTRICTIONS; in the case of fishing for example we are allowing TEMPORARILY the EU a gradually REDUCING access - at a time when, and be honest here, we cannot in any way take greater advantage ourselves.
And for what?
To give us greater opportunities elsewhere at lower cost - and no matter how you look at it that is a "win", compromise or not.
It would be of zero use to this country to have only our own fishing fleet access our waters if we have no ships with which to catch the fish and nowhere to sell what we DO catch.
As I say before: some things have changed, certainly.
Give it a while and most people won't remember a time before these changes.
I disagree with you about France too - or would you really and honestly have us immediately start down a slippery path that leads us not only to confrontation with our neighbours but to breaking international laws, allowing others to then use these things against us?
You know that some are itching, just waiting for an excuse.
Maybe (but just maybe) we could be tougher with France.
At least this way though we are working out how best to minimise the problem in a legal manner which hopefully benefits Anglo-French relationships too.
I've said before: France will find it extremely difficult to reasonably deny us what they in turn are demanding from the EU - migrant restrictions, and that discussion as we know is ongoing.
Our deal is nothing like Canada's.
Nothing whatsoever.
It is - as it should be - far more comprehensive.
So there is no comparison to be made.
I respect your opinions and your stance.
Really I do and I can understand them too, but we all of us knew that it was impossible to keep everybody happy.
Some of what you say may turn out to be correct but equally it might not.
For now, it really is time to move on and meanwhile wait for the dust to settle at least a little before prematurely pronouncing judgement.
As I said earlier:
Is it perfect?
No.
But did anybody seriously ever think that it would be?
From here on in, what happens in this country really is up to us.
For the first time in decades.
Let's start by being grateful for that.
10-01-2021, 07:50 PM
34
Re: Is Brexit over ??
Originally Posted by JBR
->
I suppose it depends upon how you define 'ties and restrictions'.We have chosen to impose some restrictions to our independence, for example the much discussed matter of our allowing EU countries to continue to pillage our waters with their supertankers.
We also seem to have turned a blind eye to the Frogs allowing (or probably encouraging) their unwanted illegal immigrants to come here, though I can't understand why.
Just two examples.
I should emphasise that these are things which we appear to have done of our own volition.
You are correct, of course, that we can leave the arrangements in Boris's deal if we want to. Personally, I think we should do so now, but if not I hope that will happen before too long when people realise that we have given too much and gained too little.
I suppose you could compare the deal we now have with the deal the Canadians have with the EU. Compare the 'ties and restrictions' there.
10-01-2021, 08:36 PM
35
Re: Is Brexit over ??
Originally Posted by Zaphod
->
Indeed, interpretation is key.We do not have RESTRICTIONS; in the case of fishing for example we are allowing TEMPORARILY the EU a gradually REDUCING access - at a time when, and be honest here, we cannot in any way take greater advantage ourselves.
And for what?
To give us greater opportunities elsewhere at lower cost - and no matter how you look at it that is a "win", compromise or not.
It would be of zero use to this country to have only our own fishing fleet access our waters if we have no ships with which to catch the fish and nowhere to sell what we DO catch.
As I say before: some things have changed, certainly.
Give it a while and most people won't remember a time before these changes.
I disagree with you about France too - or would you really and honestly have us immediately start down a slippery path that leads us not only to confrontation with our neighbours but to breaking international laws, allowing others to then use these things against us?
You know that some are itching, just waiting for an excuse.
Maybe (but just maybe) we could be tougher with France.
At least this way though we are working out how best to minimise the problem in a legal manner which hopefully benefits Anglo-French relationships too.
I've said before: France will find it extremely difficult to reasonably deny us what they in turn are demanding from the EU - migrant restrictions, and that discussion as we know is ongoing.
Our deal is nothing like Canada's.
Nothing whatsoever.
It is - as it should be - far more comprehensive.
So there is no comparison to be made.
I respect your opinions and your stance.
Really I do and I can understand them too, but we all of us knew that it was impossible to keep everybody happy.
Some of what you say may turn out to be correct but equally it might not.
For now, it really is time to move on and meanwhile wait for the dust to settle at least a little before prematurely pronouncing judgement.
As I said earlier:
Is it perfect?
No.
But did anybody seriously ever think that it would be?
From here on in, what happens in this country really is up to us.
For the first time in decades.
Let's start by being grateful for that.
I think we have enough fishing vessels to supply our domestic needs. Given chance these can expand and in the meantime, if EU fishers are prevented from destroying our stocks, it would allow the numbers to restore themselves to previous and sustainable levels.
There is already confrontation between our 'friends' in France, or hadn't you noticed? Micron is doing all he can against us and they are doing nothing to prevent illegals leaving their shores despite our having paid them to do so.
How is returning illegal aliens to the place they left (France) before coming here breaking international laws?
What benefits do we have compared to the Canadians with regard to trade and sovereignty? My question is genuine because I am not fully aware of the differences.
I didn't hope for perfection; as I have said before, I would personally have preferred a clean break and to sort out any trade deal in the future from a stronger position.
We shall have to politely agree to disagree.
10-01-2021, 08:57 PM
36
Re: Is Brexit over ??
Originally Posted by JBR
->
I suppose it depends upon how you define 'ties and restrictions'.We have chosen to impose some restrictions to our independence, for example the much discussed matter of our allowing EU countries to continue to pillage our waters with their supertankers.
We also seem to have turned a blind eye to the Frogs allowing (or probably encouraging) their unwanted illegal immigrants to come here, though I can't understand why.
Just two examples.
I should emphasise that these are things which we appear to have done of our own volition.
You are correct, of course, that we can leave the arrangements in Boris's deal if we want to. Personally, I think we should do so now, but if not I hope that will happen before too long when people realise that we have given too much and gained too little.
I suppose you could compare the deal we now have with the deal the Canadians have with the EU. Compare the 'ties and restrictions' there.
I can only add that ogree with Zaphods about the performance of
Frosty in the " negotiations" as he stood fast against Barmier all the
way to the final two days to the "deadline" when matters were taken
out of the two negotiators hands , wand put in charge of the politicians, (Boris &Von Leyen ) who immediately found a miracle
deal right at the very last minute before UK would be out of EU and would fall onto WTO rules for trading automatically!
It is clear to me that Boris renounced his pledge to the electorate to
return our territory to us in order to carry on trading with EU?
Two more hrs and then what he said he was prepared to do would
have happened!!!
Frosty had got us to that moment over one year of talking to Barmier
with all the drama that involves.and two hrs of Boris and most of
what Frosty had achieved was moved five years down the road !!
The EU would have conceeded l have no doubt !
Why did Boris do this? Imo, ? to keep the Tory party United?
70% of Tory MPs were and are vehemently opposed to Brexit, so
how did Boris get them to vote the way they did in parliament for
measures they were against ??
I think we have seen the answer to that in recent events !!
He made them a promise not to go to no deal whatever he did ??
However, all is not lost YET !
As Zaphod says, we do have some options left which we can invoke
over the next 5yrs, ( Yes another 5 yrs on top of the 4 yrs up to now )
Let's hope Boris announces something to prove his intent very
soon??
Donkeyman! 👎🤔🤔👎
them to vote the way they did in favour of the
10-01-2021, 10:08 PM
37
Re: Is Brexit over ??
Originally Posted by Donkeyman
->
You have said most of what l have to say JBR !I can only add that ogree with Zaphods about the performance of
Frosty in the " negotiations" as he stood fast against Barmier all the
way to the final two days to the "deadline" when matters were taken
out of the two negotiators hands , wand put in charge of the politicians, (Boris &Von Leyen ) who immediately found a miracle
deal right at the very last minute before UK would be out of EU and would fall onto WTO rules for trading automatically!
It is clear to me that Boris renounced his pledge to the electorate to
return our territory to us in order to carry on trading with EU?
Two more hrs and then what he said he was prepared to do would
have happened!!!
Frosty had got us to that moment over one year of talking to Barmier
with all the drama that involves.and two hrs of Boris and most of
what Frosty had achieved was moved five years down the road !!
The EU would have conceeded l have no doubt !
Why did Boris do this? Imo, ? to keep the Tory party United?
70% of Tory MPs were and are vehemently opposed to Brexit, so
how did Boris get them to vote the way they did in parliament for
measures they were against ??
I think we have seen the answer to that in recent events !!
He made them a promise not to go to no deal whatever he did ??
However, all is not lost YET !
As Zaphod says, we do have some options left which we can invoke
over the next 5yrs, ( Yes another 5 yrs on top of the 4 yrs up to now )
Let's hope Boris announces something to prove his intent very
soon??
Donkeyman! 👎🤔🤔👎
Yes, of course, our MPs were not all in favour of a no-deal and that has effectively held us back.
I, too, hope that Boris does something about the two remaining problems as I see it:
- the supertrawlers pillaging the fish that we have left;
- the continuing invasion across the Channel, apparently being encouraged by the Frogs.
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